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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 10:30 pm 
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benz76 wrote:
I cannot see anything similar between Billato and Pinarello.
It's quite obvious you've never put your hands on Pinarello's frames.

They are not that rare, aren't they. I can honestly say that i have laid my hands on more than one of them.
benz76 wrote:
The story of "bikes made by other manufacturers" is old as cycling history.
Sometimes is true (Armstrong riding Litespeeds, e.g.), but most times they're only rumors.

let me quote a posting from the "classicrendezvous" Archives
From a Billato rep: wrote:
"I can't really go into who we build for a great deal as we have to
respect client confidentiality, but over the years Billato has built a
great number of frames for a whole host of well known names. You mentioned
Lemond, when he won the 1989 Tour, his time trial bike was built by
Billato, so that should lead to another brand! The guy who won the year
before, rode a Billato-built frame, as did the guy the year before. In
1990, Lemond won again, riding steel frames built from Excell tubes that
Billato helped develop. Some of these were TIG-welded, which hadn't been
seen on a road frame before. Others took the credit for introducing this a
year later.

There was the big Dutch team in the 80's, they rode Billato built frames.
More recently, in 1999, five of the teams riding the Tour rode
Billato-built frames. Last year 'only' three. Perhaps the best one — for
me anyway, is that shortly after Silvio Billato started the company, he
was supplying great rivals Coppi AND Bartali - at the same time!
Some of the early US Masi's were Billato. Also Cinelli Super Corsa.
They're no longer built so it's OK for the public domain as it were!

BTW, I spotted a Vicini on Classic Rendezvous a couple of weeks back. That
one too :)


benz76 wrote:
You cannot mismatch Pinarello with other bikes.

maybe not the current line. look at that pic below, it shows a Pinarello Prince model 2001. If there are differences to other italian frames from that period w/ carbon rear stays, they are marginal IMO.
The "Rudy" labelled frame i mentioned in my other post looked *very* similar.
The frames you see on their website are merely their standard portfolio. I'm sure if you order a large enough number of frames they will build them according to your specs.
In fact it would be a sign of quality to get a frame made in Italy, instead of the many frames from the far east.

I have no information whether or not Billato actually builds or built frames for Pinarello. But it is quite obvious that many prestigous bike brands' models are made by OEMs like Billato or MZ in Modena.
benz76 wrote:
Insted, I found Billatos very similar to Viner (or other italin brands) bikes: this is quite obvious, since they use standard tubing (Deda mostly), forks and stays.

Billatos carbon frames resemble Basso's, Moser's and Daccordi's current frames a lot.

Martin


Attachments:
Pinarello-2001.jpg
Pinarello-2001.jpg [ 30.84 KiB | Viewed 1171 times ]

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 Post subject: Billato and others
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2004 1:04 pm 
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I stumbled on this thread and found it very interesting! First, regarding Billato. Billato's core business is producing frames for other brands to market under their own label and for teams to ride with the label of their sponsors. The Billato website carries only a handful of examples of their frames. Being custom builders, Billato is capable of producing frames from any material, with any shape tubes and with any color combination. Very few frame builders today can offer this service. It would be impossible for Billato to display all the possible combinations they can produce. Nor would it be proper business practise to display the models they produce for other brands.
Billato is one of a small number of builders able to offer carbon monocoque frames to individual specification. Billato is a company to set trends - not follow them. It is Billato's job to research new materials and designs; it is then that these designs are taken up by other makes and marketed as their own. Billato is already moving onto the 'next big thing' in frame materials, when the rest are catching up with carbon fibre! You'll see the results at all the trade shows this autumn - under many different names and in many different shapes! This is what separates Billato from the rest; Billato frames are designed and built - many other "prestige marques" are simply bought and marketed. The true spirit of the builder is heavy disguised. This thread has contained the names of over a dozen brands - all named as some of the finest available - who are not developers, but merely Billato customers! That's OK, not many people realise that today the bicycle industry is marketing-led like any other business. Billato places its focus on manufacture, not marketing.

Finally, There is a question over whether or not Pinarello frames are manufactured by Billato. At this moment, they are not.


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 Post subject: Billato and others
Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 1:04 pm 


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2004 2:07 pm 
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Posts: 731
Location: Austin
Beeble wrote:
Don't know about Steel and Alu frames, but speaking of Carbon fibre frames mixing exclusiveness and performance... Cause Parlee and Calfee do use, in my opinion, a very not up to date design. The use of lugs (alu or carbon) is a thing for the history books.

The future, in my opinion, lies in monocoque construction with oversize tubes (the later being more important) like with Scott Cr1 (for me the best carbon bike).

R&D is allways an expensive thing and small companies can't afford it, so whether we like it or not the future of carbon fibre bikes lies in the hands of big companies!


If three size fits all suits you. There is also a distinctively different ride characteristic in tubular lug constructed carbon vs. monocoque.

Tubular/lug wins hands down when compared by folks who really understand and appreciate the ride quality of a well crafted frame.

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 Post subject: R & D, carbon fibre
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2004 5:30 pm 
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Beeble wrote:

Quote:
R&D is allways an expensive thing and small companies can't afford it, so whether we like it or not the future of carbon fibre bikes lies in the hands of big companies!


You coudn't be more wrong! Most R&D is carried out by small companies, a lot of it by companies outside the bike industry! The Scott CR1 is a very nice bike, but not a product of their R&D. Perhaps the best selling CF frame of today is the Trek OCLV - this frame originated in a small research company and the design was licensed by Trek. 'OCLV' is not a product of research or a method of CF production - it was a brand name thought up by the Trek marketing people.

Marketing and R&D are two very seperate areas; they are however, dependent on each other. Perhaps, that's why people tend to believe they produce the same results. The best marketing does not guarantee the best product.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2004 6:21 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2002 3:42 pm
Posts: 1021
Location: in Colorado
I agree that Lightspeed shouldn't be on there. But what about a costum
Vortex lightspeed? It seems to me that that would make the list.
The guy that put lightspeed on his list is from Italy. Maybe the grass is greener on the other side of the fence?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2004 12:05 am 
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Location: Sydney, Australia
Doesn't R&D stand for Ripoff and Duplication :lol:

OK maybe not in frame production but for most componentry I think it does.

Why don't you rate the Litespeed Ti frames highly?

Brian


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2004 3:55 am 
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Location: in Colorado
I live in the U.S. They are pretty common over here.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2004 5:14 am 
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Location: Sydney, Australia
They are as rare as hen's teeth in Aus.


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 Post subject: Finest bikes
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2004 11:44 am 
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Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 6:21 pm
Posts: 97
Location: West Sussex, UK
I have to disagree with Litespeed not being on the list!

Firstly I own probably the most talked about, most respected, most cherished and certainly the most aerodynamic frame in the world... namely the Litespeed Blade.
I have been sponsored by a couple of major bike manufacturers in the past, but none ride as nice as the Litespeed Blade.

The finest bikes list didn't specify any criteria so this Time Trial frame I believe should be in the list.
Why?
Well as you guys know by now Lance Armstrong always rode one for years although he had it repainted in team clours. Now he rides that gastly Trek Time Trial monstrosity!
Most of the World Records in time trials and on the track were set using this frame!
The frame has been around for over a decade and keeps getting modified each year and only gets better with age!
It is made from the finest Titanium and is in my opinion crafted beautifully.
I also set my PB over 25miles and 10miles on this frame last year winning a few races in the process, so that can only be good!

Maybe there are a few jelous individuals on this forum that put this baby down as they either cannot afford this amazing frame or simply havent got the legs to justify having one!

Either way I nominate the Litespeed Blade for being one of the finest bikes ever made!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2004 12:23 pm 
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Location: Mainhattan
I dont disagree that the Litespeed Blade is a nice time trial frame, but Time Trial world records????? It doesn't even exist, and I can't think of a single track world record set on a Litespeed Blade. As a matter of fact I just took a look at the list of current UCI records and I am pretty sure that most current records have been set on Corima frames an none on Litespeed Blade. Anyway, if I was going to buy a time trial frame then the Blade would defnitively be on my short list.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2004 1:39 pm 
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Location: Kingston, the heart of UK weenie-ism
I think the 'finest' bikes are the ones we've each had the most fun on, raced and trained hardest on and enjoyed riding the most. Never ridden Ti so can't comment on LS/Seven/Merlin, etc. For me, the top three manufacturers would be:

Casati. In 2001 I bought an m:U2 - a first generation Deda U2 alloy. I think it was one of the first sub1kg frames. I leaned to climb hills on this frame and it accelerated and handled beautifully. It looked gorgeous too.

Principia. Bought an RS6 Pro because it was better and more robust than the Casati. Almost as light, but much stiffer. Still the best pure race bike I've ever owned.

Colnago. Bought a C40 last year and have just bought a C50. Bit heavier than ultralight alu, but faster on the flat and on descents because of its geometry and longer wheelbase.

PS Someone said a Scott CR1 was 'faster' than a C40. Wrong! I'd rather train a bit harder and ride a cool frame like a C40 than be a Scott weenie boy. But that's just my subjective opinion :wink:

rico


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2004 7:15 pm 
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Location: München
rico wrote:
I think the 'finest' bikes are the ones we've each had the most fun on, raced and trained hardest on and enjoyed riding the most. Never ridden Ti so can't comment on LS/Seven/Merlin, etc. For me, the top three manufacturers would be:

Casati. In 2001 I bought an m:U2 - a first generation Deda U2 alloy. I think it was one of the first sub1kg frames. I leaned to climb hills on this frame and it accelerated and handled beautifully. It looked gorgeous too.

just bought my first Casati a few weeks ago. I have only ridden it once but i must say it is beautifully crafted and rides *very* nice. It is not exactly WW stuff today, but in its days it was top class:


Attachments:
File comment: Casati "Gold Line" with ICS Superrecord gruppo
a_casati_640.jpg
a_casati_640.jpg [ 44.26 KiB | Viewed 815 times ]

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2004 11:17 pm 
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Location: Kingston, the heart of UK weenie-ism
Now that is a fine machine. I guess 'fine' bikes are not always weight weenie bikes. I'd love a Colnago Tecnos - and they're not exactly light...

rico


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 Post subject: Casati
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2004 12:18 am 
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I'm also Casati owners club member. I have a Monza from a couple of years ago (01?) that is a custom track frame, fast and beautiful!

Rico, does your M:U2 have the finished BB welds or not? I've noticed some do and some don't.

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 Post subject: Casati
Posted: Thu May 06, 2004 12:18 am 


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2004 12:00 pm 
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Location: Kingston, the heart of UK weenie-ism
cyco -

I parted company from my Casati a couple of years ago :(

From what I remember, the whole frame had no visible welds - including the BB. It really was a work of art.

The Monza is/was the Deda 61.10 one wasn't it?

Right, I'm now actively seeking a Record/Nucleon equipped second hand Casati...

rico


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