Sorry didnt read your reply properly. As I said Fondriest were used as the all alu frame (replacing then paris and now galileo for the more heavy tempo riders in the team who do/did not like the very flexy and pittifully low STW of the Prince. I´ve owned a Prince and for that price I must say it sucked! The extra weight of the carbon b-stay and the flexy tubing making it very hard to handle in high speed descents and sprints. I can understand that you call one of the best frames iin the world it just illustrates the power of marketing.

Don't know about Steel and Alu frames, but speaking of Carbon fibre frames mixing exclusiveness and performance... Cause Parlee and Calfee do use, in my opinion, a very not up to date design. The use of lugs (alu or carbon) is a thing for the history books.

The future, in my opinion, lies in monocoque construction with oversize tubes (the later being more important) like with Scott Cr1 (for me the best carbon bike).

R&D is allways an expensive thing and small companies can't afford it, so whether we like it or not the future of carbon fibre bikes lies in the hands of big companies!

First of all, Cyco thank you for introducing me to Columbine. These bikes look like true art. Unfortunately I´ve never ridden one but looks are superb. Cadence as you will have noticed the list shows many brands that offer only one model or the custom way, some of them even unchanged for years. To stay with one frame design that has proven to work awesome instead of jumping on new technology hypes could therefore be a good criterion to get on the list, Gholl. Of course it is subjective as is any post on any forum. Yet, this is the reason why I started this thread. Give me Your opinion on what You think is finest. Cadence, you hit the nail on the head, the thread reads finest, not best. In fact my list of best bike(s) would be quite short. Moots. But, there are others out there that can be mentioned to offer superb ride qualities complemented with elegance and spirit of the builder. In this respect Giant is probably not artistic. In additon, Spytech, if you think the Merlin Cielo to be fine in the a.m. sense it should show extraordinary craftmanship and the perfect ride. In fact it is stiff as a wet noodle in the bb. And, ever since Pacenti left Merlin to build his own business their lugs are mere mainstream. For individuality see the llink below for instance … All I can say is, thank you RIDE for coming down for what this is all about “Oh, so many opinions”. I just asked for yours

http://www.llewellynbikes.com/thegallery/album13/aac

As for aluminiun i can only say that Principia is not the best bike, there is a lot of broken Principia's, some of their models are ok, but i have seen to many broken ones and i think they are crap.
I would agree in the old Klein Q Pro is one of the best alu frames outthere, the new Klein's isn't the same quality, sorry to say.

For Alu, I would have to go for something made of Dedacciai, nearly all top manufacturers (?!) are using their tubes!

Are you trying to imply that I no nothing about frames and base my decisions on marketing? My opinion is based on real world experience not marketing. As far as flex goes do you weigh 300 lbs? I am near 200 and don't have any flex problems. And I am comparing that to many all alunimum frames I have riden in the past. You are right on the weight though. I do wish the frame was a little lighter.

This is a very entertaining thread!
I suggested Colnago for several reasons-both objective and subjective. From an objective standpoint their frames have always been very well made and they have used a full gamut of materials from steel to carbon. Their construction, geometry and finish have always been of the finest quality.
As Florian has indicated objective testing of a bike will take one just so far. The real mark of Colnago's success has been the duration of worldwide esteem for the marque-not only among professionals but among the public as well.

I cannot see anything similar between Billato and Pinarello.
It's quite obvious you've never put your hands on Pinarello's frames.
The story of "bikes made by other manufacturers" is old as cycling history.
Sometimes is true (Armstrong riding Litespeeds, e.g.), but most times they're only rumors.
I don't know which year are you referring to, but in last two years Telekom bikes were "true" Pinarello.

I've been to Billato's website: those bikes have nothing to do with Pinarello.
Pinarello manufactures by himself forks (which are quite different from anything around there) and rear stays (notice that every model gets a specific fork and rear stay, except Dogma and Prince SL which share Onda carbon ends).
You cannot mismatch Pinarello with other bikes. Insted, I found Billatos very similar to Viner (or other italin brands) bikes: this is quite obvious, since they use standard tubing (Deda mostly), forks and stays.

I wait for the time I'll hear someone claiming that this year Telekom bikes are actually Ritchey steel frames instead of Giant TCR...
It's only a matter of time... believe me!

Bye, Benz.

The Caad 6 maybe is the best frame for people heavier then 80 kg.
For the others the caad 4 is better, because they don t need the Cannondale Crankset, and because the Caad 4 has the better, more durable headset-system which regrettably was replaced with the integrated headset system from the Caad 5-serie on.

Well said Benz76! I agree.

Well I´m 189 ibs at the moment and flex a prince like spaghettios.
The stiffest Pinarello frame I´ve owned was a Galileo (the galieo is an OEM by the way), which by the way Zulle preffered to Paris and first edition Prince when he rode Pinarello cause the flex scared him in descents.
More resently Zabel refused to ride the Dogma because it was too flexy.

I would really like to know what kind of tubing is hidden under Petacchis "Pinarello".

Youre absolutely right I am talking about "heavy" pros at 180-200 ibs. A light rider wont notice the flex as much. Ofcourse rider style come into play too. I started out on Pinarellos and stopped when I tried frames with much higher STW like Klein Q pro (without the c-bstay), Principia Rex Pro and Caad 6. A stiff frame gave me much better handling in descents and sprints and most importantly safer cornering while pedalling ability.

Comparing the Prince to those frames mentioned above it´s very flexy indeed. I´ts not a crappy frame I´ll grant you that... but it way too overpriced for what it has too offer. If your use of the Prince is for recreational riding you couldnt have made a better choice because it is very comfortable....something that not can be said of many high stw bikes. But maybe this will change with the Scott Cr1 dunno havént tried it yet.

Vey few pros weigh 180-200lbs. I would say that US pros are larger than European pros, and 180-200 is even heavy for a US pro. I weigh over 180lbs as well and have tried CAADs, Kleins (berfore the c-bstay as well), and the likes and I have found the Prince to be a better bike, quality and stiffness included (not that the other frames aren't great frames). You are the first person I have heard of say that the Prince was too flexy "flex a prince like spaghettios" to be exact. The Dogma is another issue. It could be more "flexy" and it would not supprise me. I still have my doubts of Magnesium frames. To each his own I guess. By the way I race my Prince as well, I didn't choose it for recreational riding.

Eros Polo weighed 92 kilos when he won on Ventoux. But youre right most riders are around 70 kilos or less.

Poli....! Sorry Eros

I have bought a Telekom team machine and I have to say that it's a stiff frame, when you put your feet on the BB the frame doesn't flex much.