Hi-Mod frame vs non-himod ? Different frame quality ?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
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toshi
Posts: 256
Joined: Tue Jul 04, 2006 1:32 am

by toshi

Agree with the magical ride quality of high end carbon but my experience is limited to Supersix hi-mods. Gave it a go with low-end carbon from Scott among others and that's when I experienced what people mean when they say "it rides like a slab of wood."

Sure there is probably no increase in average speeds, but if you spend lots of time on your bike, ride quality counts for a lot.

by Weenie


Hexsense
Posts: 324
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:41 am

by Hexsense

CrankAddictsRich wrote:In my experience, the higher grade frames aren't any stiffer when it comes to use, than their lower grade frames... the higher grade/stiffer carbon means they can use less carbon to achieve the same level of stiffness, which is how they save the weight. I have a Venge Pro and a few of my friends have S-Works Venge's... riding the bikes, to me, they feel the same, but their frames were lighter. Overall build weights are basically equal though, because I've chosen my parts a little more carefully and saved that 150g in other areas.

Also note that durability of non-hi mod will likely be better.
As most hi-mod carbon has about the same or some time lower strength than low or medium mod (per volume). And yet there are less carbon in the hi-mod frame. So Hi-mod means equal or better stiffness, less weight, less durability and impact strength.

TheKaiser
Posts: 436
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:29 pm

by TheKaiser

Hexsense wrote:
CrankAddictsRich wrote:In my experience, the higher grade frames aren't any stiffer when it comes to use, than their lower grade frames... the higher grade/stiffer carbon means they can use less carbon to achieve the same level of stiffness, which is how they save the weight. I have a Venge Pro and a few of my friends have S-Works Venge's... riding the bikes, to me, they feel the same, but their frames were lighter. Overall build weights are basically equal though, because I've chosen my parts a little more carefully and saved that 150g in other areas.

Also note that durability of non-hi mod will likely be better.
As most hi-mod carbon has about the same or some time lower strength than low or medium mod (per volume). And yet there are less carbon in the hi-mod frame. So Hi-mod means equal or better stiffness, less weight, less durability and impact strength.


Yes, exactly right on both those points in my experience

Regarding ride quality, there are many other variables that come into play so I am doubtful of anyone's ability to tell the difference between hi-mod and non hi-mod frame unless done in a blind test scenario with matched parts, tire pressures, positions, and potentially weights depending on what you want to test.

Regarding durability, the hi-mod fiber is both more brittle, so intrinsically more fragile to impact, and used more sparingly, so there are fewer plies helping to disperse an impact.

gewichtweenie
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Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 3:12 pm

by gewichtweenie

the real difference is the price, and sticker on the frame.

reedplayer
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Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:10 am

by reedplayer

TheKaiser wrote:Regarding ride quality, there are many other variables that come into play so I am doubtful of anyone's ability to tell the difference between hi-mod and non hi-mod frame unless done in a blind test scenario with matched parts, tire pressures, positions, and potentially weights depending on what you want to test.


gewichtweenie wrote:the real difference is the price, and sticker on the frame.


+1

uraz
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Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:48 pm

by uraz

I guess those stickers have to weigh a lot ...

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wheelbuilder
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Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:10 am

by wheelbuilder

I totally disagree with those stating that the only difference is in price/weight/brittleness. Across the board in my experience, the higher end carbon bikes, are generally laid up differently, and the frame is able to be "tuned" creating a lively, responsive feel that the lower end carbon versions of the same frame are lacking. It's really pretty obvious if you have access to, and ride many road bikes of various brands.

I think maybe those that claim the lower grade carbon frames are the same except for weight and price probably own the lower grade carbon version of the brand they are riding, and are making themselves feel better about it. There is a difference, and it's not marketing.

AJS914
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by AJS914

The price tag though is marketing because it can't possibly cost them that much more to make.

Lieblingsleguan
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Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:47 pm

by Lieblingsleguan

wheelbuilder wrote:I totally disagree with those stating that the only difference is in price/weight/brittleness. Across the board in my experience, the higher end carbon bikes, are generally laid up differently, and the frame is able to be "tuned" creating a lively, responsive feel that the lower end carbon versions of the same frame are lacking. It's really pretty obvious if you have access to, and ride many road bikes of various brands.

I think maybe those that claim the lower grade carbon frames are the same except for weight and price probably own the lower grade carbon version of the brand they are riding, and are making themselves feel better about it. There is a difference, and it's not marketing.

It is probably at least as likely that those who spent the money on a high modulus frame need to reassure themselves that it wasn't just for 200g of weight savings.

Seriously though, it really comes down to price/weight/strength as long as the manufacturer made both frames equally stiff (there is a lightweight version of the Merida Scultura which, according to Merida, is less stiff than the next "best" version of the frame). But there is also another difference due to the fact that CFRP has a quite significant material damping. The lower damping of lighter frames built with ultra high modulus fibers will certainly create a different riding sensation, yet it is not better or worse, just different. To some, it might certainly feel faster but, again given equal stiffness, it is not beyond the weight effects.

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Sacke
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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:33 pm
Location: South of France

by Sacke

The issue is significantly complicated by the fact that many riders don't have the ability to feel what is the cause of a certain vibration, "slab-of-woodiness", responsiveness etc.

In a way it's like music. Someone that is tone deaf can't identify a false note, but might know that it sounds awful.

Some say they can't feel a difference in shifting smoothness between a well cleaned and lubed chain, and a chain that has received coat upon coat of whatever oil has been available.

They are the same riders that won't notice a 2-3mm difference in reach or saddle height, since they just get on a bike and ride it.

With modulus it's similar. I don't claim to be a master of any sorts, but I like (over)analysing all the small details that add to ride quality.

Regarding hi-mod and non hi-mod Cannondales, I've had a 2014 SS Evo Hi-Mod, a 2016 Non Hi-Mod (old frame design) and a 2016 Hi-Mod (new frame design).

To me, comfort wise there isn't any significant difference between Hi-mod and non Hi-mod. Performance wise there is a small difference. Accelerations on the Hi-mod feel more responsive, as in more of the power being translated into forward movement.

The difference is small, but if you are sensitive to the difference, you will notice.

All that claim it to be stickers and weight are right in their own sense. They can't feel the difference, but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

jlok
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Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

AJS914 wrote:The nicer bikes I've ridden have a springiness or liveliness to them. I'm not even sure how to describe it accurately. I've ridden equally stiff carbon bikes that feel dead and wooden and then others that feel lively. The lively bikes are the nicest to ride but I think both would give you the same time up a climb (assuming weight is the same).

This is an accurate description. Most of the high-end bikes just ride better and mayeb a bit faster plus they are usually more bling. Worth or not is a value thing. Make up your own mind.

jeffy
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by jeffy

Lieblingsleguan wrote:It is probably at least as likely that those who spent the money on a high modulus frame need to reassure themselves that it wasn't just for 200g of weight savings.


And it is just a likely that those who didn't want to spend the money on a high modulus frame need to reassure themselves that the only difference is 200g and "marketing"

:smartass:

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Sacke
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Location: South of France

by Sacke

jeffy wrote:
Lieblingsleguan wrote:It is probably at least as likely that those who spent the money on a high modulus frame need to reassure themselves that it wasn't just for 200g of weight savings.


And it is just a likely that those who didn't want to spend the money on a high modulus frame need to reassure themselves that the only difference is 200g and "marketing"

:smartass:


:goodpost:

gewichtweenie
Posts: 148
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 3:12 pm

by gewichtweenie

wheelbuilder wrote:I totally disagree with those stating that the only difference is in price/weight/brittleness. Across the board in my experience, the higher end carbon bikes, are generally laid up differently, and the frame is able to be "tuned" creating a lively, responsive feel that the lower end carbon versions of the same frame are lacking. It's really pretty obvious if you have access to, and ride many road bikes of various brands.

I think maybe those that claim the lower grade carbon frames are the same except for weight and price probably own the lower grade carbon version of the brand they are riding, and are making themselves feel better about it. There is a difference, and it's not marketing.


we're not talking about a canyon cf slx vs a btwin 540.
we're talking about bikes in same family, range, design, platform, model, whathaveyou...
they can be rolling off literally the same mold, just with a different cf sheet or or there.
sure frames make a difference, but the first order determinant is the overall design - sections, profiles, geometry.
that they slap a t1000 square instead of a t800 square at the bb junction for me probably falls under 3rd order.

from a sellers point of view this is the greatest thing going. make a design (the time consuming spart), order some molds (the $ part).... and heres the easy part: change the layup schedule minimally, call it OCLVxx or xxR or HMx and bam, you got 3/4/5 different "models" targeting every stratification of the target market.

i'd love it if the manufacturers publish deflection tests on the bikes for fitness. or fit some accelerometers and test their comfort. cant cost more than wind-tunnel time, if you ask me. we know from countless studies in countless fields about psychosomatic effects and how our expectations heavily color our perception. for the exact same base frame, lets see matter of factly how hi-mod is truly different from nor-mod......

by Weenie


Lieblingsleguan
Posts: 152
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:47 pm

by Lieblingsleguan

Sacke wrote:
jeffy wrote:
Lieblingsleguan wrote:It is probably at least as likely that those who spent the money on a high modulus frame need to reassure themselves that it wasn't just for 200g of weight savings.


And it is just a likely that those who didn't want to spend the money on a high modulus frame need to reassure themselves that the only difference is 200g and "marketing"

:smartass:


:goodpost:

No, not a good post at all, as I already responded to a guy who wrote the same thing that you wrote first. So it just shows that both of you are not that good at reading stuff.

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