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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:32 pm 
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Posts: 64
Does anyone had an opportunity to try Ultimate CF SLX and CF SL frames? Or seen the quility of the products? The difference is 100g between them (for the disc version). Price of SLX is almost twice of SL model and if the difference would be pretty much only in the weight, it would be no brainer (for me at least).
If i wanted to buy a complete bike I would take SLX model probably but I am more interested only in the frameset, which is priced attractively with the integrated aerocockpit and the same fork as the SLX model has.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:23 pm 
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Posts: 58
15% difference in weight, 50% difference in price, no difference in build quality, subtle and subjective difference in ride quality. If you have money and want the best just get slx, otherwise buy whatever you feel is the best deal. It's like asking should I get dura-ace or ultegra. There is no good answer.

Personally I'd rather buy used hi-mod than new generic one, but it's just me. That's probably because I can appreciate small differences.


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Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:23 pm 


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:32 am 
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Posts: 1765
Location: Zion
AJS914 wrote:
The price tag though is marketing because it can't possibly cost them that much more to make.

Makes me think of the auto industry. Seems they make a disproportionate amount of their profit from their luxury and/or high performance offerings (e.g.: Merc's AMG, BMW's M, Toyota's Lexus, etc). Are their luxury and/or high performance offerings "worth it?" It's neither here nor there except to say there's money to be made. A lot of it.

_________________
5.7kg / 12.7lbs Addict SL w/PowerTap
9.3kg / 20.5lbs Scale 29 Pro ... woefully under-used
Retired: 5.9kg / 13lbs Addict R1 w/PowerTap ... lowest was 5.593kg / 12.33lbs


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:22 pm 
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Posts: 136
Johnny Rad wrote:
AJS914 wrote:
The price tag though is marketing because it can't possibly cost them that much more to make.

Makes me think of the auto industry. Seems they make a disproportionate amount of their profit from their luxury and/or high performance offerings (e.g.: Merc's AMG, BMW's M, Toyota's Lexus, etc). Are their luxury and/or high performance offerings "worth it?" It's neither here nor there except to say there's money to be made. A lot of it.

whether something is worth is is one thing
in the car world, the higher end model is demonstrably different in measured and perceived ways. like a e220diesel vs e63 amg. you can stomp the gas and realize the massive difference in acceleration, ride quality, cornering grip, etc.

a tarmac pro vs sl4 s-works? not so much


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:14 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:03 am
Posts: 707
Location: nyc
All hi mod means is more stiff and brittle the matrix, so durability is actually lower, used hi mod would be worse im afraid you are falling for the "more expensive=better" marketing ploy. Hi mod generally is used only on areas needed for extra stiffness instead of areas that may require some flex for handling, comfort etc. Im surprised so many people here fall for the stiff, expensive so must be better bs.. modulus is just a measure of stiffness to weight it does not connote "better" in terms of engineering much less ride quality and desired characteristics. The stiffness/weight bs should have died w the 90's

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:44 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2014 11:51 pm
Posts: 1238
Johnny Rad wrote:
Makes me think of the auto industry. Seems they make a disproportionate amount of their profit from their luxury and/or high performance offerings


not suggesting that this is not true in the auto industry. But in the fashion market, the high-end brands make hardly anything (if any profit at all) from their more expensive items. But these luxury items build brand reputation which means LV, RL etc can charge huge amounts for scents / belts etc. Ralph Lauren makes most from polos in outlet stores (and the polos in outlet are specifically made for outlet, from cheaper materials than the polos sold in stores/online).


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:23 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 6:22 am
Posts: 1765
Location: Zion
jeffy wrote:
...in the fashion market, the high-end brands make hardly anything (if any profit at all) from their more expensive items. But these luxury items build brand reputation which means LV, RL etc can charge huge amounts for scents / belts etc. Ralph Lauren makes most from polos in outlet stores (and the polos in outlet are specifically made for outlet, from cheaper materials than the polos sold in stores/online).

Good counterpoint.

Regardless of profit, the top-of-the-line halo products build consumer lust and drive sales of their other stuff. Whether or not halo models drive a disproportionate amount of revenue / profitability seems to differ by industry.

So, do we think bike mfg's make a large or small portion of their revenue / profitability from their halo models? Suspect they're low volume sellers, but their prices are much higher - is it enough to offset??

_________________
5.7kg / 12.7lbs Addict SL w/PowerTap
9.3kg / 20.5lbs Scale 29 Pro ... woefully under-used
Retired: 5.9kg / 13lbs Addict R1 w/PowerTap ... lowest was 5.593kg / 12.33lbs


Last edited by Johnny Rad on Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:40 pm 
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Posts: 1765
Location: Zion
gewichtweenie wrote:
in the car world, the higher end model is demonstrably different in measured and perceived ways. like a e220diesel vs e63 amg. you can stomp the gas and realize the massive difference in acceleration, ride quality, cornering grip, etc.

a tarmac pro vs sl4 s-works? not so much

Clarification - My original point about the auto industry was to point out that there's a disproportionate amount of profit delivered front the lux / hi-po offerings. I refuse(d) to say whether they're "worth it!" No, sir. No way, Jose. I can't win a personal preference argument! Ha. :noidea:

Yes, auto rags clearly publish 0-60mph/100kph times and skidpad ratings. If the average Joe drives two cars with dramatically different results (like your example of a hypermiler diesel E vs hot rod AMG E that costs x2 more $), it's not hard to believe they'll appreciate a difference. If the two are closer, I'm not confident they can really and truly appreciate 4.5sec vs 4.9sec to 60/100 or .84g vs .88g around the skidpad?! Is it "worth it" to have a car that's faster, better handling, more luxurious, etc?! Auto mfgs want you to think so because they make more money selling them AND probably bring in buyers for their lower-end cars. I also think the auto industry controls the rags, but that's another story.

Back to bikes. Remember laterally stiff and vertically compliant ad nasueam?! Ugh, we all do. Like my car comments above, I'm not confident the average cyclist can really and truly appreciate subtle differences. I agree with your Tarmac Pro vs Tarmac SL4 example being too close to call for many of us! Is it "worth it" to have a bike that's marginally stiffer yet more compliant, made in a particular country, hand-painted, etc?! Bike makers want you to think so for much the same reasons as car mfgs, right?

_________________
5.7kg / 12.7lbs Addict SL w/PowerTap
9.3kg / 20.5lbs Scale 29 Pro ... woefully under-used
Retired: 5.9kg / 13lbs Addict R1 w/PowerTap ... lowest was 5.593kg / 12.33lbs


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:09 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:29 pm
Posts: 419
Sacke wrote:
The issue is significantly complicated by the fact that many riders don't have the ability to feel what is the cause of a certain vibration, "slab-of-woodiness", responsiveness etc.

In a way it's like music. Someone that is tone deaf can't identify a false note, but might know that it sounds awful.

Some say they can't feel a difference in shifting smoothness between a well cleaned and lubed chain, and a chain that has received coat upon coat of whatever oil has been available.

They are the same riders that won't notice a 2-3mm difference in reach or saddle height, since they just get on a bike and ride it.

With modulus it's similar. I don't claim to be a master of any sorts, but I like (over)analysing all the small details that add to ride quality.

Regarding hi-mod and non hi-mod Cannondales, I've had a 2014 SS Evo Hi-Mod, a 2016 Non Hi-Mod (old frame design) and a 2016 Hi-Mod (new frame design).

To me, comfort wise there isn't any significant difference between Hi-mod and non Hi-mod. Performance wise there is a small difference. Accelerations on the Hi-mod feel more responsive, as in more of the power being translated into forward movement.

The difference is small, but if you are sensitive to the difference, you will notice.

All that claim it to be stickers and weight are right in their own sense. They can't feel the difference, but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


When it comes to the Cannondale SS bikes from about 4-5 years ago, the higher end ones were less torsionally stiff, both in terms of pedaling and front triangle "steering" stiffness, than the regular ones:
https://cycletechreview.com/2012/media/ ... -bicycles/

I don't disagree that some riders are more sensitive than others, but I would be willing to bet a substantial sum that there is no significant difference (under 1%) in wattage being translated into forward movement between your bikes, and of that difference, only a tiny fraction of that tiny figure is due to the frame, with the majority coming from tire rolling resistance, followed by bearing drag, wheel aerodynamics, etc...


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:06 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:03 am
Posts: 707
Location: nyc
Yup. Not to mention power lost to fatigue on an overly stiff rig over time

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:40 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:48 pm
Posts: 58
TheKaiser wrote:
When it comes to the Cannondale SS bikes from about 4-5 years ago, the higher end ones were less torsionally stiff, both in terms of pedaling and front triangle "steering" stiffness, than the regular ones:
https://cycletechreview.com/2012/media/ ... -bicycles/

Ignoring the fact that this is a marketing material from giant (just look what they have done to make TCR "lighter" than SS Evo) they are comparing 2 totally different super six's (evo and "before evo" model) - not hi-mod and non hi-mod. Actually you can't even tell if they used hi-mod or non hi-mod cannondales.

Relying purely on weight I'd guess that it was evo hi-mod and non evo non hi-mod.

For me the most important aspect of a bike is how it feels, how it corners and how it brakes. Don't get me wrong, wats savings and drag coefficient are also important but mostly when doing TT. If you pay too much attention making bike "fast" you will lose in joy and rideability department.

I have swapped frameset in my bike 2 times (from non hi-mod ss to hi-mod ss and from non hi-mod evo to hi-mod evo) and believe me I could feel the difference right away.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:01 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:34 pm
Posts: 708
I read Tour International Magazine a lot and they measure almost all the frames they test. In general if you look at the results - the heavier cheaper version of the same frame is usually stiffer but heavier.

I don't recall seeing a frame that was High- Mod being stiffer than the cheaper version.

For Example on the new BMC Roadmachine 01 the BB is 61Nm/mm and the Cheaper 02 Version is 75NM/MM. The only difference between the two frames (Measured by Tour) is that the 01 frame is 150 grams lighter - the forks and headsets are the same weight.

I would have to guess if you build up both of them you could make the difference between the 01/02 a lot less as you could save a bunch in the Stem/handlebar and not have to use those heavy looking spacers (they do look good though).

I've observed this on a number of Storck's as well - BB stiffness is higher on the cheap ones.

Basically if you are a big guy or like stiff bikes - take the Cheaper version - The difference in weight is miniscule and you can save Thousand's - which you can put into a better lighter Group or Better/lighter wheels and net the same weight at the same cost and get a stiffer bike.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:31 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:47 pm
Posts: 14
I've been waiting for a cycling magazine to do this review article. Take each of the big manufacturers that have hi and low mod versions of the same bike, remove paint/distinguishing marks, and then test them head to head.

Any mag editors out there paying attention? I'm sure we'd all love to read this article...


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:52 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 3:12 pm
Posts: 136
Johnny Rad wrote:
Clarification - My original point about the auto industry was to point out that there's a disproportionate amount of profit delivered front the lux / hi-po offerings. I refuse(d) to say whether they're "worth it!" No, sir. No way, Jose. I can't win a personal preference argument! Ha. :noidea:

Yes, auto rags clearly publish 0-60mph/100kph times and skidpad ratings. If the average Joe drives two cars with dramatically different results (like your example of a hypermiler diesel E vs hot rod AMG E that costs x2 more $), it's not hard to believe they'll appreciate a difference. If the two are closer, I'm not confident they can really and truly appreciate 4.5sec vs 4.9sec to 60/100 or .84g vs .88g around the skidpad?! Is it "worth it" to have a car that's faster, better handling, more luxurious, etc?! Auto mfgs want you to think so because they make more money selling them AND probably bring in buyers for their lower-end cars. I also think the auto industry controls the rags, but that's another story.

Back to bikes. Remember laterally stiff and vertically compliant ad nasueam?! Ugh, we all do. Like my car comments above, I'm not confident the average cyclist can really and truly appreciate subtle differences. I agree with your Tarmac Pro vs Tarmac SL4 example being too close to call for many of us! Is it "worth it" to have a bike that's marginally stiffer yet more compliant, made in a particular country, hand-painted, etc?! Bike makers want you to think so for much the same reasons as car mfgs, right?

Sure. I get what you mean and I agree. What my main point is this, is that hi-mod vs non hi-mod (or 11r vs 10r , etc) is that these arent engineering feats to be appreciated, nor differences to be recognized beyond whats on paper.

It is by all means a convenient shortcut to maximize a base design, fabricate artificial differentiation, and cover varying price points with minimal effort.

unlike transforming a base Porsche 911 to a 911 GT3 RS, it's akin to swapping a shift knob, programming +10hp to the ECU, and calling it an xxth anniversary limited release. (And in some examples, a product is intentionally engineered down - rather than up - to create apparent differentiation)

pmdd72 wrote:
I've been waiting for a cycling magazine to do this review article. Take each of the big manufacturers that have hi and low mod versions of the same bike, remove paint/distinguishing marks, and then test them head to head.

Any mag editors out there paying attention? I'm sure we'd all love to read this article...

Seen an old magazine comparing steel makers who crafted 7 variants of a model using different tubing. differences were minimal.

Here's a similar one by Josh Poertner

http://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Thoughts ... _4571.html


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:07 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:30 am
Posts: 193
I had an S-Works Tarmac SL3 and I paid extra to get S-Works. After a few years I felt the ride was too harsh and ending up selling it for half of what i bought it for and got a Cannondale SS non-himod. I love this bike and have never ridden a himod but didn't want to spend the extra money like I did on the S-Works.
For me the non-himod version is plenty good enough.


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Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:07 pm 


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