Firefly or Mosaic

[Asscdi]

Some more options: https://jguillem.com/
Depends on where you are located. The N°22 looks cool though!

[dbnm]

I own a Moots Vamoots RSL. It's a lovely bike. If I bought another titanium bike it would be either No22 or Mosaic. And I would visit there shop for a fitting. My understanding is that Firefly now has a 13 months wait.

[RyanH]

Which of the top builders actually do tube shaping and use a lot of butted tubes? Maybe this is naive but I feel like if a top builder is just using round non-butted tubes then what makes their bike worth 6x the cost of a Waltly?

I've always admired Moots because they have something unique, their tubes on the RSL are sourced from the only company in the world that can draw and butte those tubes. Litespeed does a lot of tube manipulation which I believe is one of the reasons why I think my T3 has managed to see so many good carbon frames come and go...because it has the characteristics of a carbon frame while still being very Ti.

Mind you, this isn't a knock on the custom builders, I'm genuinely curious what their approach is that differs the end result from Litespeed or Moots. I've contemplated going custom just to get a level TT. From what I've researched, Moots would be my top choice because I believe they're the only ones that will get me a ~1100-1200g frame that's also stiff.

[fa63]

Having visited the Moots factory, I was very impressed by the workmanship that goes into each frame. Not sure a small builder can do the same with their limited resources, but I don’t know for sure.

For me, a custom Ti bike would be between a Moots or Seven. For stock, a Moots or Litespeed.

[pamountainbiker]

Can anyone with experience on both mosaic and firefly speak to the difference in ride quality? I think the issues of large versus small production and other good points brought up so far are secondary to the differences and ride quality. If they are very similar and ride quality then I would imagine it comes down to aesthetics and the ability to procure a frame in a timely fashion, But if there are big differences in ride quality, then IMO that would be the bigger driver of the decision.

The Mosaic RT-1 (that's an important detail) ride quality is pretty distinct in my opinion. I have two, each custom made for me but with different geometry, so I can definitely speak to ride quality versus handling, as sometimes the two are conflated. The RT-1 rides very much like a carbon bike but with a little snap. This is a nice way of saying its pretty laterally stiff, but still retains a livelyness that really comes into its own when you're going fast (18+ MPH). I liken it to this, at the beginning of the season when I'm a tad soft I always get off of longer rides saying to myself "man this thing just transmits everything," basically it's a little bit uncomfortable when you're not in your best shape. After a few weeks, it feels great, it's just the right amount of twangyness, bottom bracket stiffness, vertical complaince etc. It has a magical, but very taut ride, like carbon in terms of stiffness, but more buzzy which I really enjoy. You feel the road in a good way. It gets this quality by the fact that the RT-1 uses large diameter, very thin wall tubes in the top and downtube and really thin seat stays. Firefly until recently didn't do butted tubes, and honestly don't do a lot of butted bikes now. Most of their bikes are straight gauge which are wonderful, but they're not going to ride the same - much more like a traditional ti bike (i.e. more springy) not that that's bad. They also have a different build philosophy when it comes to dropouts, Mosaic are huge adherents of Breezer style drop outs and seatstays miters to the exact angle of attachment. FF uses a gorgeous plate CNC drop out that depending upon the seatstay angle is not necessarily always a dead on join based on the angle of the drop out tab. Again, nothing wrong with that. The Mosaic is surprisingly light. Mine is 54 CM equivalent, all aluminum cockpit and seatpost, 1530 Gram wheelset, DA 9000 Di2. With pedals and cages it's right at 16.3. That's not 14 pounds but it's a "lifetime" frame. FF (might) has better weld aesthetics (not necessarily quality) although both my Mosaics are pretty stunning in that regard. Cost wise they're both in the same ballpark. I will say however, that I think the entire expedite fee that FF allows you to pay is a tad annoying. And it's not about money, it's about principle. I have a lot of nice bikes, neither Mosaic, nor Parlee as an example charge a "bump the line" fee, the cost is what it is and the time is the same. I got both my Mosaics within 6 weeks of putting the order in as a point of reference. I thought really hard about going Firefly disc road this year (even spoke with them at length twice in the past two months) but in the end decided I'm going back to Mosaic for a 3rd RT-1. It actually came down to how Mosaic cuts the internal hose tube flush with the downtube. Firefly doesn't do that. In the end FF = better aethetics I think, Mosaic offers a more technologically refined product. (years of experience with butted tube sets, custom relieved and lightened BB shell, machined and lightened headtube, internal seattube sleeve - like Moots - internal hose guide tubes cut flush).

[RyanH]

Thanks for the thorough response, do you remember the frame weight of the mosaic?

[pdlpsher1]

Which of the top builders actually do tube shaping and use a lot of butted tubes? Maybe this is naive but I feel like if a top builder is just using round non-butted tubes then what makes their bike worth 6x the cost of a Waltly?

I've always admired Moots because they have something unique, their tubes on the RSL are sourced from the only company in the world that can draw and butte those tubes. Litespeed does a lot of tube manipulation which I believe is one of the reasons why I think my T3 has managed to see so many good carbon frames come and go...because it has the characteristics of a carbon frame while still being very Ti.

Mind you, this isn't a knock on the custom builders, I'm genuinely curious what their approach is that differs the end result from Litespeed or Moots. I've contemplated going custom just to get a level TT. From what I've researched, Moots would be my top choice because I believe they're the only ones that will get me a ~1100-1200g frame that's also stiff.

When I had my custom Ti frame built, my builder gave me a choice between Reynolds internally butted tubes and FeatherTech externally butted tubes, I chose the latter. For one, externally butted tubes can be butted to a greater differential because there's no mandrel that needed to be removed. Of course one needs to be extermely precise to butt a tube externally, hence FeatherTech has a proprietary process that is used. If I recall the Merlin Extralight tubes are also externally butted. Secondly FeatherTech is Denver based and it's local to me. I like the idea of supporting a local company.

I wanted a Ti frame with a touring bike geometry (long chainstays, a very low BB since I don't race, slacker HT angle, etc.) but also with smaller diameter butted tubing as I'm a light rider. No stock offering exists that meet all of my 'wants'. Therefore I went with a custom Ti frame. If you want a racey Ti bike in a traditional race geometry then your Litespeed cannot be beaten in terms of performance per dollar spent. Of course you can get a custom high-dollar Ti frame built to match your Litespeed's geometry but it won't give you any performance edge. Some people just want a high-end custom Ti bike purely for the name/prestige. And that's perfectly fine too. But as you said it earlier the ride and handling quality of the bike is solely based on tubing diameter/butting/geometry, not who builds the bike.

[PyreofFyre]

http://www.strongframes.com/

I'd caution against Strong Frames. Great marketing, seemingly great reputation.

However.

My personal experience having worked with Carl on a custom titanium frame was less than stellar. Had spec'ced the frame with an ISP, and received it with a Ritchey stubby. Rode it for <500km and < 6 months, heard a loud crack and found the stubby cracked all the way from the bottom to the rails.

Removed the stubby and saw that it had been bored out to fit the 35mm seat tube. Sent photos and emails to Carl, who promised to respond - nothing. Skype calls and a chunk of cash on international calls and still nothing. As an experienced builder, Carl should have known better. Unless it was more about getting the job done and the frame out of the shop, and praying for the best.

I weigh 65kg.

PoF

[dak]

FYI I just spoke to Firefly yesterday and they said they are about 15mo out without the fee to bump you up in line.

[Bigger Gear]

Another American builder to consider might be Stinner in Santa Barbara, CA. They produce some beautiful bikes in both steel and Ti.

http://www.stinnerframeworks.com

Regarding Carl Strong, I bought a steel frame from him way back in 2004. Everything was OK for the most part, but I was really not a fan of the powdercoating on the frame. It was very heavy and did not make assembly easy. I had to hand-file the cable stops and face the derailleur hanger, which was prep that I felt should have been taken care of before the frame shipped to me.

[RyanH]

Does anyone have some frame weights for the custom builds? I thought I saw a Mosaic in our forum that was 1400g for the frame. Denavelo failed big time and didn't weigh his Firefly... Smh.

[pamountainbiker]

Thanks for the thorough response, do you remember the frame weight of the mosaic?

I believe it was around 1160-1180 grams for what amounts to a 54 CM equivalent. Full disclosure though, I weighed it with the Chris King cups in, seat collar form Thomson (not the lightest) and stainless water bolts in place. I estimated (at that point in time) how much teh cups and collar weighed and derived from that. As ti frames go it's fairly light, but compared to modern, especially non custom, non tube to tube carbon, it's about a pound heavier. That being said, a custom tube to tube carbon frame where the build is such that it won't immediately crack if it accidentally falls over weighs about 1000-1050 grams. The Parlee came in around that. So lighter yes, but not a gigantic amount lighter.

[RyanH]

My Litespeed T3 is 1250g so if that number is correct then that's a very respectable weight.

[pdlpsher1]

This Mosaic is 1,260g. I think the size is 53.5cm and it has internal cable routing which adds weight. My 54cm Strong Ti is 1,213g however my frame has skinny tubes and exeternal brake routing which makes it lighter. The tube sizes are 1.500" bi-ovalized down tube, 1.375" ovalized top tube, and 1.250" straight gauge seat tube. Chain stays are Deda ovalized taper stays. Seat stays are 0.625". The seat tubes takes a 27.2mm seat post. A 44mm HT and a T47 BB. My frame is plenty stiff for my meager power output. You might need something much stiffer and hence heavier.

https://lifeisabeautifuldetail.com/blog ... ect-part-3

[cdtf]

Bla