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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:01 pm 
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Dr.Dos wrote:
Daniel1975 wrote:
Really funny to read there are people out there, that really defend this marketing-bullshit-on-wheels. But it's a shame they cannot have a good argument and start to insult people.
8.4kg is ridiculous, whatever aero advantages they claim. Next year a 9kg Vias with spoilers for more downforce on fast descents? ;-)

Yes. But only Specialized manages to sell large numbers of $599 "PRO tuning-kits" on top to its lemmings, that revert the spoiler-kit.

What is this pro tuning kit you speak of?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:26 pm 
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is it at all possible, that some WT Pro riders actually *like* disc brakes?


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Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:26 pm 


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 7:31 pm 
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jeffy wrote:
is it at all possible, that some WT Pro riders actually *like* disc brakes?

Absolutley it is... and according to the most recent poll, the number of pros that fall into that category is about 15%.

My sole beef with discs in the pro peloton is simply this... the pro peloton is not asking for them. I'm not even talking about safety issues, which may or may not have been exaggerated, I don't care about that since I personally believe those issues are probably overblown anyway. It's that they are being pushed onto the highest level of road bikes by the manufacturers who want to sell disc braked bikes to the masses. And they may very well be better for the masses, let the masses decide. But it truly irks the manufacturers pushing discs that they can't show a picture of pros at the highest level of road racing crossing that grand tour finish line, arms raised in victory, with discs prominently focused upon in the picture that ends up on the front of the company's brochure. Marketing is THE reason manufacturers sponsor road racing, so damnit... they want the likes of their most elite riders on the bikes they thing they want to sell in the coming year. End of story.

If pros were yelling "We want discs, we want discs...", then I'd say... go for it. And they may very well do that down the road at some point. And if that happens, then great...if all the pros genuinely want them. But the fact is, they aren't and they don't. At least not yet. Even in a very recent poll this has been shown yet again... not sure why this poll wasn't presented in the Pro Cycling thread, maybe it was, but in any case... here are the results once again...

From Cycling Tips article... Dec 2, 2016
Of the nearly 550 respondents who have answered the survey thus far, less than 16% want to resume disc brake testing given the proposed UCI conditions. Almost 44% will only support testing if all of the CPA’s conditions are met, and the remaining 40% don’t want disc brakes at all, period.
And the three conditions they speak of are:
1) that the rotors be rounded at the edges
2) that the brake systems be covered with a guard
3) that everyone has to use them (no mish mash with some riders using rim brakes and others using discs).


So, I personally happen to like the current crop of road bikes with rim brakes, I just do, shoot me. They work just fine for all my uses. There are a whole lot of changes that have to be made to a road bike frame to accommodate discs, and I've listed those elsewhere before. But as soon as the manufacturers can force discs into the peloton, and make no mistake, they are being forced as opposed to being asked for by the vast majority of the pros, that will virtually spell the end of the high end rim braked road bike going forward. The marketing circle will be complete and the sales reps won't have to squirm around an awkward conversation when the loaded mamil walks into the shop asking to buy "what the pros ride". And the "mountainization" of road bikes will be complete.

I have nothing against discs as to their function and purpose in various applications. But I truly resent the manufacturers forcing them upon the pros when they're not being asked for. And it's not like the pros "don't know what they're missing". C'mon... they pro cyclists... they know that the latest tech is or they don't care, either way is fine. If they wanted it, they'd ask for it I'm sure. Or at least ride it when it's stuffed in their hands.

Carry on...

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 7:56 pm 
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Posts: 328
Location: NorCal/SoCal
Calnago wrote:
jeffy wrote:
is it at all possible, that some WT Pro riders actually *like* disc brakes?

Absolutley it is... and according to the most recent poll, the number of pros that fall into that category is about 15%.

My sole beef with discs in the pro peloton is simply this... the pro peloton is not asking for them. I'm not even talking about safety issues, which may or may not have been exaggerated, I don't care about that since I personally believe those issues are probably overblown anyway. It's that they are being pushed onto the highest level of road bikes by the manufacturers who want to sell disc braked bikes to the masses. And they may very well be better for the masses, let the masses decide. But it truly irks the manufacturers pushing discs that they can't show a picture of pros at the highest level of road racing crossing that grand tour finish line, arms raised in victory, with discs prominently focused upon in the picture that ends up on the front of the company's brochure. Marketing is THE reason manufacturers sponsor road racing, so damnit... they want the likes of their most elite riders on the bikes they thing they want to sell in the coming year. End of story.

If pros were yelling "We want discs, we want discs...", then I'd say... go for it. And they may very well do that down the road at some point. And if that happens, then great...if all the pros genuinely want them. But the fact is, they aren't and they don't. At least not yet. Even in a very recent poll this has been shown yet again... not sure why this poll wasn't presented in the Pro Cycling thread, maybe it was, but in any case... here are the results once again...

From Cycling Tips article... Dec 2, 2016
Of the nearly 550 respondents who have answered the survey thus far, less than 16% want to resume disc brake testing given the proposed UCI conditions. Almost 44% will only support testing if all of the CPA’s conditions are met, and the remaining 40% don’t want disc brakes at all, period.
And the three conditions they speak of are:
1) that the rotors be rounded at the edges
2) that the brake systems be covered with a guard
3) that everyone has to use them (no mish mash with some riders using rim brakes and others using discs).


So, I personally happen to like the current crop of road bikes with rim brakes, I just do, shoot me. They work just fine for all my uses. There are a whole lot of changes that have to be made to a road bike frame to accommodate discs, and I've listed those elsewhere before. But as soon as the manufacturers can force discs into the peloton, and make no mistake, they are being forced as opposed to being asked for by the vast majority of the pros, that will virtually spell the end of the high end rim braked road bike going forward. The marketing circle will be complete and the sales reps won't have to squirm around an awkward conversation when the loaded mamil walks into the shop asking to buy "what the pros ride". And the "mountainization" of road bikes will be complete.

I have nothing against discs as to their function and purpose in various applications. But I truly resent the manufacturers forcing them upon the pros when they're not being asked for. And it's not like the pros "don't know what they're missing". C'mon... they pro cyclists... they know that the latest tech is or they don't care, either way is fine. If they wanted it, they'd ask for it I'm sure. Or at least ride it when it's stuffed in their hands.

Carry on...



Your argument would hold water if the UCI didn't require pros to ride what is available to the public (lawyer tabs and all), and the manufacturers made a pro ride something they didn't want. As it stands, if a pro wants the sponsorship, they need to ride what the company is selling, this is being "forced" by the UCI. If it some big conspiracy as you suggest, then we should completely ignore racing as a metric as to whether any piece of equipment is good or not.



.



.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:08 pm 
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You and your "conspiracy" argument make me laugh. You're the only one ever using the word "conspiracy". It's not a conspiracy, it's business. I can't even follow your argument so I can't comment on it. It makes no sense to me.

Hmmm... maybe I'm confusing you with my use of the word "forced". If so, let me change that to "pushed when they're not being asked for". If that makes it easier to understand, then just use that substitution. You're right, the riders aren't physically being "forced" to use them, but the manufacturers sure are "encouraging" them to do so.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:57 am 
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Posts: 328
Location: NorCal/SoCal
Calnago wrote:
You and your "conspiracy" argument make me laugh. You're the only one ever using the word "conspiracy". It's not a conspiracy, it's business. I can't even follow your argument so I can't comment on it. It makes no sense to me.

Hmmm... maybe I'm confusing you with my use of the word "forced". If so, let me change that to "pushed when they're not being asked for". If that makes it easier to understand, then just use that substitution. You're right, the riders aren't physically being "forced" to use them, but the manufacturers sure are "encouraging" them to do so.



And so what?! That is their job, they signed up knowing they are part of the machine and might get told what to ride or use, so why do you even care? Yes it is business, but your continued implication that their motives are some how nefarious do amount to something of a "conspiracy theory. They might be pushing for disc because they have to due to the rules (expensive to build bikes both ways).. Like I've told you before, I don't think they need the racing to sell particular bikes anymore, it's more about branding.



.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:25 am 
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Posts: 238
Just when you thought this bike couldn't worse, Specialized manages to snag defeat out of the jaws of victory.

Guess Sagan's bike did it's job as a Marketing tool, but boy is it ugly.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:56 am 
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Posts: 787
There is things that we need or are real quality and upgrade, usually based on real engineering and research, and high quality production and craftmenship..Also this aproach are more complicated and more expensive to produce..

And things oposite of all this,that we dont need at all, and based on pure marketing bs, and only made just to put lower production cost, raise prices and big company's to have even more profit...

Im afraid that DISC brakes on Road Bike are one of this, and also the bike that is that heavy is part of those...Also i can see in MTB this kind of things with 29" Wheels (which now are slowly changing to 27.5" standard). This kind of things are good for brands like Specialized, because makes u to buy a new bike, and not just to upgrade old one if u like this things and even more profit for them..

BTW, when Specialized Venge hit the market, i was excited based on all that marketing , and had a chance to try it.. Worst ever bike i had a chance to ride.. Like riding a timber.. Also that rainbow colour for me is kitch, and for me is like putting disco light in a sport car..So for me, big NO.. I must say that im very satisfied from Specialized Epic MTB (i have 2007 model Marathon Carbon, and still for me is one of the best MTB bikes i ever tried and not planning to change it and i consider this as real engineering and upgrade compared to my old Specialized Stumpjumper FSR XC i had before that).


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:16 pm 
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Posts: 161
Boonen struck first and won on his Venge Disc yesterday! First win for a Disc in a UCI road race.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:51 pm 
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Posts: 787
stoney wrote:
Boonen struck first and won on his Venge Disc yesterday! First win for a Disc in a UCI road race.



I wonder how much faster he'll be if he rode a proper light weight and diskless bike :roll:


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:04 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 21, 2016 12:59 pm
Posts: 338
boonen have both rotors in 160mm size
sagan have 160mm front/140mm rear

what is standard rotor size for neutral support? or it is not regulated by rules yet?

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Last edited by ooo on Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:03 am 
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Posts: 211
Location: Wilmington, DE
ooo wrote:
what is standard rotor size for neutral support? or it is not regulated by rules yet?


160mm front and rear according to this article: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/boonen- ... hout-2017/


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