Dogma F10 vs Madone 9 vs Bianchi oltre 4

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joejack951
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by joejack951

Calnago wrote:So why Pinarello still uses the Italian threads is beyond me. It doesn't matter, as the precession process is not relevant with todays BB designs, so functionally it doesn't present the issues that it did in the past,


Old post, but I'm pretty certain (but lack real world evidence of any issues) that this is incorrect. Even in a cartridge bottom bracket, the bearing races are essentially fixed to the cartridge (by means of being press fit into the cartridge) and thus subject it to precession loads. Even in instances where both threaded cups are not 'fixed' to the cartridge itself those cups are still designed to be a tight fit to the cartridge and would likely try to turn with the cartridge due to precession.

Sort-of modern outboard bearing cups share even more in common with old-timey cup and cone bottom brackets as the outer bearing races are press-fit into those cups providing a direct load path from the outer race to the cup. You don't want the outer bearing race spinning in the cup so it is always pressed in there quite tightly. As an aside, BB30 and PF30 designs where the bearings slip in are clearly poorly designed/manufactured as this is asking for issues; no bearing manufacturer would suggest designing a system like that where neither the inner or outer bearing race is tightly press fit onto a shaft or into a bore, respectively.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

@joejack951: Yes, that's getting to be an old post now... I had to go back aways in this thread to get the whole context. While precession is still present, it does not have nearly the same effect in today's world as yesterdays, before the advent of cartridge bottom brackets even. Today, even if you still have a cartridge bottom bracket, the actual bearings are inside that cartridge and likely to be cartridge bearings themselves, not loose. Then the cartridge is encased in some more cups, which have threads which thread into the Bottom Bracket (assuming threaded here). So, instead of loose bearings rolling directly against a race which is itself threaded into the shell, you have the bearings rolling against their own outer race if they are cartridge bearings. The outer surface of the outer race is pressed against the inside of the BB cartridge, and the BB cartridge is itself enclosed in some right and left cups, which finally get threaded into the shell. This is quite different than when the whole bottom bracket was like a cup and cone system, and loose bearings rolled directly against the race which threaded directly into the shell. If those combined cups/races weren't in the shell very tightly, they would loosen up due to precession and unthread themselves on the drive side, but only in a right hand thread (which the Italian threads are). Hence, high torques of 50Nm on the cups were the order of the day, and since no one would even think of using a torque wrench back then, sometimes they were tight, and sometimes they weren't. The ones that weren't came loose... guaranteed. So, enter the English threaded bottom bracket... with it's left hand thread. Now, even if precession was at work, be it old or even in the newest designs, the effect would simply be to tighten down the cups as opposed to loosen them. No problem. Hence, I can't understand why Pinarello seems to persist on using the Italian threads in their bottom brackets, except to say that at least that part of their bikes has some "Italian" to them, aside from the paint. You just think they might have picked a better piece of Italy to use than "Italian" bottom bracket threads. Does anyone else still use them, I mean anyone? Save for maybe a few independents building frames in the backroom of a Italian Pizzaria? I don't know... but I can't think of any outside of Pinarello.
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Beaver
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by Beaver

Delorre wrote:
Beaver wrote:Tour tested the F10 to be exactely as aero as the Madone btw.:

https://www.wilier.com/sites/default/fi ... nrader.pdf (German)


Does someone have the values (or a pdf link or...) of the F8 Tour test done in 2016? Would be intrestng to see the differences.


https://translate.google.com/translate? ... t=&act=url

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by Delorre

Beaver wrote:
Delorre wrote:
Beaver wrote:Tour tested the F10 to be exactely as aero as the Madone btw.:

https://www.wilier.com/sites/default/fi ... nrader.pdf (German)


Does someone have the values (or a pdf link or...) of the F8 Tour test done in 2016? Would be intrestng to see the differences.


https://translate.google.com/translate? ... t=&act=url


Thx!! Bummer there are no stiffess and confort values in the text or in the graphs like in the F10 test.

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by Geoff

The BB? Really? How about the Trek 'suspension'? Have you ridden that thing? It is unreal. It will change your perspective on hoe a really stiff aero bike can feel.

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by maxim809

zappafile123 wrote:
Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:28 am
I'll be interested to see if this holds up when I finish building my XR4. Your comments about the handling dont suprise me frankly. Though I loved the XR2, the handling was a little shit because you felt perched up, not particularly stable and it just didnt feel intuitive. Bar the slight decrease in head-tube height/stack and a 2 mm increase in reach, the XR4 geometry is the same as the XR2.

As for softness, and feeling relaxed when you're hammering, thats exactly what Bianchi set out to achieve with the XR4. You should be able to hammer longer than you can on your Dogma. Let us know if this is the case, especially on 4+ hour rides.
Hey Zappa, I disappeared for 3 years and only now saw this reply. Came back to ask some weenie questions and I saw your reply in my inbox. What a time capsule! Some updates since then...

1. XR4 has 14,000 miles. Just last month I finally replaced the SR cassette as half the cogs were worn down. I have the most time in the saddle on this bike.

2. The Dogma 65.1 remains at 8,000 miles. It's essentially retired, in preservation fully built.

3. I built a Dogma F8 with SR12. It's a few hundred shy of 2,000 miles and this is my main bike at the moment.

4. I rented an F10 disc for a week during a trip. Was built with SRAM eTap AXS and Zipp 303's.

I found the F10 disc way too stiff and I was not a fan. However, in fairness I think every part of the build was adding to it -- the stiffer wheels, the stronger fork to handle disc brakes, and finally the F10 frame itself in its stiffest incarnation since the 65.1 and F8. For me, it was not my favorite setup. I ride the 65.1/F8's using Shamal rim wheels and a simple Deda cockpit.

I have newfound appreciation for the XR4 rim. I recently road a 2019 R5 disc. The Cervelo despite its pencil thin stays and tube shapes was noticeably harsher than the XR4 across the same roads. Of course, the R5 was one of the best climbers -- but I do not enjoy descending on it. The Cervelo handles much faster. Italian bikes tend to handle in a way that require a little extra forethought than the North American bikes, but they have a nicer swooping feel underneath you while cornering if that makes sense. Between the XR4 and Dogma, the Dogma nails this cornering/counter steering feel better.

To answer your last question, I find the XR4 definitely softer which helps on flats. Impressive for an aero frame. :)

Did you ever build up your XR4? If so, how'd it go?

Hopefully you see this reply.

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by zappafile123

maxim809 wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 10:22 pm

To answer your last question, I find the XR4 definitely softer which helps on flats. Impressive for an aero frame. :)

Did you ever build up your XR4? If so, how'd it go?

Hopefully you see this reply.
Hey mate, haha long time! I clocked a little over 7000 km on my XR4 before I sold it. It's build had a couple of variations over the time I had it such as a long stint with Black Inc Eighty wheels. Overall it was a good frame but the Counterveil perhaps made the ride a little too muted to be properly fun.

A surprising thing I've noticed is that the XR4 is slower compared to my Tarmac SL6. I want to give you some numbers but right at this point in time the Strava site has crashed for me. A rough guess is that on the XR4 sitting on 160 watts will get me an average speed of 30.7 km/h around Centennital Park whereas the SL6 will give me something more like 32 km/h for the same effort.

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by maxim809

zappafile123 wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 1:35 am
Hey mate, haha long time! I clocked a little over 7000 km on my XR4 before I sold it. It's build had a couple of variations over the time I had it such as a long stint with Black Inc Eighty wheels. Overall it was a good frame but the Counterveil perhaps made the ride a little too muted to be properly fun.
Nice build! Dude, I know exactly what you mean about muted ride and lacking fun. I don't get my desired road feedback from this frame.

Furthermore, the frame lacks "punch" when sprinting or climbing. I know the frame is on the heavy side, but I've ridden much heavier that doesn't feel as sluggish when I punch it out of corners. I've always attributed this dragging feeling to the Countervail like you mention. XR2 was probably the best balanced feel. My friend owned an XR1 and that frame was ungodly too stiff akin to an early generation Scott Addict. But boy do the bones of the XR-series look good.

I've actually felt this way about the XR4 since week 1, right out of the gate. So that's my honest opinion. :) The high mileage is from treating the bike as a commuter.

I've been itching for a new weekend bike for years. You will have to link me to your SL6 build! Looking at your signature, I'm also curious to know what's been your favorite feeling bike thus far. I've considered building a Diamante and Evo. How do these compare to the Spesh and XR?

This thread's morphed into an XR4 vs the world, haha.

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by zappafile123

maxim809 wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 4:16 am
zappafile123 wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 1:35 am
Hey mate, haha long time! I clocked a little over 7000 km on my XR4 before I sold it. It's build had a couple of variations over the time I had it such as a long stint with Black Inc Eighty wheels. Overall it was a good frame but the Counterveil perhaps made the ride a little too muted to be properly fun.
Nice build! Dude, I know exactly what you mean about muted ride and lacking fun. I don't get my desired road feedback from this frame.

Furthermore, the frame lacks "punch" when sprinting or climbing.

I've been itching for a new weekend bike for years. You will have to link me to your SL6 build! Looking at your signature, I'm also curious to know what's been your favorite feeling bike thus far. I've considered building a Diamante and Evo. How do these compare to the Spesh and XR?

This thread's morphed into an XR4 vs the world, haha.
My XR4 was reasonably stiff - it didn't like out of the saddle climbing so much, but seated climbing felt efficient and when you put the hammer down it went. One thing thats interesting is I've ridden several XR4s and each one rode a little differently. This is partly due to the frames being made in different countries, but it could also be a sign that there might be some general inconsistencies in the manufacutring at the factory they've chosen in Vietnam.

The Tarmac is a proper weapon. The Venge is noticeably more responsive out of th saddle however - makes the tarmac seem soft in comparison. Still I'm really happy with the Taramac and feel no desire to go through the hastle of changing up. I've got an Enigma (which is freakin goregous, but currently out of action) and a Ridely Helium SLX to balance things out when I get bored of it. viewtopic.php?f=10&t=155225&p=1458145#p1458145

I've written a little about the Dimante somewhere here on the forum. Best handling bike I've ridden hands down. Otherwise its a diesel and slow to accelerate/has a slightly dull ride quality. The Evo is a refined alrounder but also a bit dull to ride. I reckon the Helium SLX is better.
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by maxim809

zappafile123 wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 6:55 am
My XR4 was reasonably stiff - it didn't like out of the saddle climbing so much, but seated climbing felt efficient and when you put the hammer down it went. One thing thats interesting is I've ridden several XR4s and each one rode a little differently. This is partly due to the frames being made in different countries, but it could also be a sign that there might be some general inconsistencies in the manufacutring at the factory they've chosen in Vietnam.

The Tarmac is a proper weapon. The Venge is noticeably more responsive out of th saddle however - makes the tarmac seem soft in comparison. Still I'm really happy with the Taramac and feel no desire to go through the hastle of changing up. I've got an Enigma (which is freakin goregous, but currently out of action) and a Ridely Helium SLX to balance things out when I get bored of it. viewtopic.php?f=10&t=155225&p=1458145#p1458145

I've written a little about the Dimante somewhere here on the forum. Best handling bike I've ridden hands down. Otherwise its a diesel and slow to accelerate/has a slightly dull ride quality. The Evo is a refined alrounder but also a bit dull to ride. I reckon the Helium SLX is better.
Wow on the manufacturing. Having had experience with both low and high volume production, I believe it.

I can see Taiwan having the manufacturing expertise given the huge biking industry presence there. The Taiwanese tech laying down the carbon on the XR4 probably did hundreds of TCR's, Reacto's and Treks. Vietnam is up and coming like much of emerging SE Asia/South America, so I can imagine they are still working out the process control. Let alone developing an eye for what's meets the bar for quality and what does not.

Lol @ Diamante being a diesel. It's now only appropriate that it gets built in the Petroleum color. That's amazing to hear it handles well -- maybe it's that rake and trail combined with how it sits. That said, the long reach always has me scratching my head so that makes great handling even more intriguing. Great to know where the compromises are too. Very helpful info! The search goes on.

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by zappafile123

maxim809 wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 12:34 am

Wow on the manufacturing. Having had experience with both low and high volume production, I believe it.

I can see Taiwan having the manufacturing expertise given the huge biking industry presence there.

Lol @ Diamante being a diesel. It's now only appropriate that it gets built in the Petroleum color. That's amazing to hear it handles well -- maybe it's that rake and trail combined with how it sits.
Yeah I used to work for Bianchi (just a shop manager). I had the pleasure of riding one of the first XR4s in Australia that was made in Tiawan. Completely different bike. It was actually super stiff/responsive and harsh - the countervail effect wasn't nearly as prominent.

Re the Diamante, looking at the geometry chart I would have thought that the 53 was too big for me. I think the read is like 393 mm which is a reach more common on a 56 frame (mind you we're talking the Diamante from 2015 here). But it was the right size (173 cm) and I rode it slammed with a 110 mm stem and a bit of 11 cm of saddle to HB drop. I am not a conifdent descender (mostly becuase I live in a flat area and don't do it much). But the Diamante gave me confidence. I got to the point of bombing down Black Mountain. It was great. I miss that feeling.

I've always wanted to own a Storck. The new Aernario.2 looks cool and even the aerfast.3 looks great (though disc only by the looks of things).
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by maxim809

zappafile123 wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 3:22 am
Yeah I used to work for Bianchi (just a shop manager). I had the pleasure of riding one of the first XR4s in Australia that was made in Tiawan. Completely different bike. It was actually super stiff/responsive and harsh - the countervail effect wasn't nearly as prominent.

...I got to the point of bombing down Black Mountain. It was great. I miss that feeling.

I've always wanted to own a Storck. The new Aernario.2 looks cool and even the aerfast.3 looks great (though disc only by the looks of things).
You know, I jogged through my memory riding the XR4 today. I remember buying my frame just months after it was announced. Receipts show Oct 2016. I found a killer deal from Belfast, Ireland -- $3.5k USD at Slane Cycles.

I remember thinking to myself, that's odd that a brand new recently announced XR4 would already have what I considered to be a steep discount. I thought either the frame was trying to compete with better known frames like the Dogma, Tarmac/Venge, C60, what-have- you. Or, these were first-off-the-line production frames ready for early adopters from an unproven factory (which, doesn't many business sense because how could a customer ever know let alone make an informed decision based on factory palette lots). The original guess about undercutting price to take marketshare also didn't sit right with me because in the end these are high-end niche products. Maybe competition really was the thing.

Regardless, when it arrived I was happy to see the serial numbers and authenticity checked out. It indeed had a Made in Vietnam sticker. So maybe the story I go with now is they were able to price low because indeed they cut production costs from an cost effective factory. Not too bothered, and if anything I'm happy with this being the exciting narrative and conclusion to that head scratcher. Questions around that discount remained with me for YEARS. The harsh Taiwan frame sounds awesome by the way!

Interesting, so you must be north of Brisbane? I've cycled twice in Australia, once up Mt Mee and the other northern Sydney. I wanted to try Black Mountain but it was a little too far from where I stayed. Australian roads were paved really well from the routes I did. Nice texture, I loved it. Based on those two, I really felt Australia is still a hidden gem. I had a great time.

Here's the build. I plan to post my others, and if I ever decide on a Storck I'll post it up too. Three years from now I'm sure, haha.
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=161405

weenielyf
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by weenielyf

zappafile123 wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 3:22 am
maxim809 wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 12:34 am

Wow on the manufacturing. Having had experience with both low and high volume production, I believe it.

I can see Taiwan having the manufacturing expertise given the huge biking industry presence there.

Lol @ Diamante being a diesel. It's now only appropriate that it gets built in the Petroleum color. That's amazing to hear it handles well -- maybe it's that rake and trail combined with how it sits.
Yeah I used to work for Bianchi (just a shop manager). I had the pleasure of riding one of the first XR4s in Australia that was made in Tiawan. Completely different bike. It was actually super stiff/responsive and harsh - the countervail effect wasn't nearly as prominent.

Re the Diamante, looking at the geometry chart I would have thought that the 53 was too big for me. I think the read is like 393 mm which is a reach more common on a 56 frame (mind you we're talking the Diamante from 2015 here). But it was the right size (173 cm) and I rode it slammed with a 110 mm stem and a bit of 11 cm of saddle to HB drop. I am not a conifdent descender (mostly becuase I live in a flat area and don't do it much). But the Diamante gave me confidence. I got to the point of bombing down Black Mountain. It was great. I miss that feeling.

I've always wanted to own a Storck. The new Aernario.2 looks cool and even the aerfast.3 looks great (though disc only by the looks of things).
Sorry to revive an oldish thread. I'm curious about your thoughts on the XR4 overall vs something like the Madone? I'm currently trying to decide between the Madone SLR, XR4, Cento10Pro and Venge. I spent about 5 mins on a Venge on a smooth road, and now it seems test rides will be unattainable. I rode the Madone the other day and thought it felt very similar to the Venge, but it performed pretty well over the potholes I aimed it at. I would be grateful for your thoughts (or being pointed in the direction if they've been documented here before and I missed it!)

Noctiluxx
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by Noctiluxx

The Madone is a bit more comfortable, planted, and holds speed a bit better. It's also more sluggish, doesn't climb as well, and handle as sharp as the Oltre. To me the Oltre is the better overall bike and looks sexier.
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maxim809
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by maxim809

I love this thread for its ability to remain relevant even to this day.

I still can't speak for the Madone... but some more development on my n=1 opinions of the XR4. For a long time I did not love the XR4, yet I still kept it for 4 years while I sold everything else so obviously there is something there. If I had to be honest about my situation, my finishing kit around the frame is simply bad. I've been slowly changing parts and the bike's coming alive.

The biggest and final problem I need to resolve is I ride with Metron 5D bars. I've been refusing to fix it because it completes the look, but it's too short and FSA does not make a longer option for the 40cm wide rim bars in Celeste. Dialing in fit is one of the biggest hassles with integrated solutions, but it's something one has to accept when choosing integrated. And this has become more commonplace especially in the aero bike domain. There is something to be said about measuring and dialing in fit multiple times before pulling the trigger on an integrated bike, but in reality certain things are impossible to account like huge loss or gains in fitness over the course of longterm ownership. Integration can't account for this moving target.

For giggles, I've tried non-integrated bars to simulate the ideal fit for me and the XR4 rides amazing. Now I just need it to do that while looking great with matching integrated bars. These bars... man... These bars.

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