Dogma F10 vs Madone 9 vs Bianchi oltre 4

Back by popular demand, the general all-things Road forum!

Moderator: robbosmans

User avatar
Calnago
In Memoriam
Posts: 8612
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

Not at all... fast forward a bit more and you have no one willing to manufacture an Italian threaded BB cup if only one manufacturer is using it. And don't confuse cartridge bearings with cartridge bottom brackets (the entire assembly which included the square taper axles etc). Not that it matters today.
Last edited by Calnago on Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



fromtrektocolnago
Posts: 1145
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:15 pm

by fromtrektocolnago

Calnago wrote:Ok, a little history... at this point in time, from a purely functional standpoint it doesn't matter in the least whether it's Italian threaded or English threaded since the ball bearings themselves are never running against the actual surfaces of the cups. But back in the day (yes, I was alive then), and before cartridge Bottom Brackets were prevalent (some of you are probably asking what those are even), the bottom bracket cups screwed directly into the frame, and the ball bearings were loose and rolled against the inner surface of the cup and the axle itself. The directional forces of the balls against the cups would, through the process of precession, act to turn the cups in counterclockwise direction (the normal direction to loosen things). If the bottom bracket cups weren't installed very very tightly, that was enough to often loosen and unthread the entire bottom bracket cup. It happened to me while cycling across the southern US one year on my Basso, and I didn't have a BB tool to keep it tight enough, so for a while, till I got to a major town with a tool to tighten it properly it was a royal pain in the ass. This was not at all uncommon. So, to combat this, the left hand threaded bottom bracket on the drive side (Enlgish) solved this problem completely. Now, if the BB wasn't exactly tight enough, the process of precession would act to tighten it, and not loosen it.

Then came the cartridge bearing Bottom Brackets which were completely self contained and just screwed into the threaded frame shell. The cups were there just to hold the cartridge but the ball bearings themselves never actually spun against them and were contained unto themselves. In fact, with the cartiridge type BB's, it didn't even matter whether or not you faced the frame shell, so long as the threads on both sides of the frame were aligned.

Fast forward to today and there really is absolutely no reason to be using an Italian threaded BB shell, unless you really want to just be different than what the standard has become (at least as far as threaded shells are concerned). Actually, there are no real BB standards these days, but that's another topic.

So why Pinarello still uses the Italian threads is beyond me. It doesn't matter, as the precession process is not relevant with todays BB designs, so functionally it doesn't present the issues that it did in the past, but still.... I guess they just want to hold onto a little bit of their "Italian" heritage, even though it's probably the worst aspect of the Italian heritage they could possibly want to hold onto.


Why is Pinarello using an italian threaded, vs an english threaded design? seems obvious to me. ....
Marketing. Italian bike should use an Italian threaded bottom bracket. It sounds better anyway for that matter.
Colnago C-59 (Dura Ace)
Firefly(Ultegra)
Colnago C-64 disc(ultegra) with Bora 35 wheels

martinko
Posts: 355
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:08 am
Location: Slovakia

by martinko

So then, why are their top models ridden and advertised by the top Pro team not with an Italian groupset, but a Japanese one?

Edit: Also check their website, with quick glance I see more photos of Shimano equipped bikes, not just F10.

fromtrektocolnago
Posts: 1145
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:15 pm

by fromtrektocolnago

martinko wrote:So then, why are their top models ridden and advertised by the top Pro team not with an Italian groupset, but a Japanese one?

Edit: Also check their website, with quick glance I see more photos of Shimano equipped bikes, not just F10.


Campy costs too much. That's why.
Colnago C-59 (Dura Ace)
Firefly(Ultegra)
Colnago C-64 disc(ultegra) with Bora 35 wheels

User avatar
PSM
Posts: 1706
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:45 pm
Location: Stockholm, The Arctic...

by PSM

fromtrektocolnago wrote:Dogma. It's the only one that comes with a threaded bottom bracket.


:beerchug:

User avatar
Vallinotti
Posts: 91
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:12 pm

by Vallinotti

I am struggling with the same dilemma. I have an order for a new Madone RSL 2017, but when I saw the F10 I just felt in love. However I am not willing to pay for 3000 AUD of difference between those bikes with very similar specs.

spdntrxi
Posts: 5782
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

AttacknowAttackoften wrote:I can't say what will happen.

My money says nothing


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
2024 BMC TeamMachine R Building
2018 BMC TImeMachine Road
2002 Moots Compact-SL- getting aero look makeover
2019 Parlee Z0XD - "classified"
2023 Pivot E-Vault - completed project, full Xplr package

fromtrektocolnago
Posts: 1145
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:15 pm

by fromtrektocolnago

Calnago wrote:Ok, a little history... at this point in time, from a purely functional standpoint it doesn't matter in the least whether it's Italian threaded or English threaded since the ball bearings themselves are never running against the actual surfaces of the cups. But back in the day (yes, I was alive then), and before cartridge Bottom Brackets were prevalent (some of you are probably asking what those are even), the bottom bracket cups screwed directly into the frame, and the ball bearings were loose and rolled against the inner surface of the cup and the axle itself. The directional forces of the balls against the cups would, through the process of precession, act to turn the cups in counterclockwise direction (the normal direction to loosen things). If the bottom bracket cups weren't installed very very tightly, that was enough to often loosen and unthread the entire bottom bracket cup. It happened to me while cycling across the southern US one year on my Basso, and I didn't have a BB tool to keep it tight enough, so for a while, till I got to a major town with a tool to tighten it properly it was a royal pain in the ass. This was not at all uncommon. So, to combat this, the left hand threaded bottom bracket on the drive side (Enlgish) solved this problem completely. Now, if the BB wasn't exactly tight enough, the process of precession would act to tighten it, and not loosen it.

Then came the cartridge bearing Bottom Brackets which were completely self contained and just screwed into the threaded frame shell. The cups were there just to hold the cartridge but the ball bearings themselves never actually spun against them and were contained unto themselves. In fact, with the cartiridge type BB's, it didn't even matter whether or not you faced the frame shell, so long as the threads on both sides of the frame were aligned.

Fast forward to today and there really is absolutely no reason to be using an Italian threaded BB shell, unless you really want to just be different than what the standard has become (at least as far as threaded shells are concerned). Actually, there are no real BB standards these days, but that's another topic.

So why Pinarello still uses the Italian threads is beyond me. It doesn't matter, as the precession process is not relevant with todays BB designs, so functionally it doesn't present the issues that it did in the past, but still.... I guess they just want to hold onto a little bit of their "Italian" heritage, even though it's probably the worst aspect of the Italian heritage they could possibly want to hold onto.


Fantastic contribution. I had once known this but long since forgotten this piece on bottom bracket trivia. Years ago this was the purported reason for the superiority of English threaded design over Italian design but as you point out no longer an issue.
Colnago C-59 (Dura Ace)
Firefly(Ultegra)
Colnago C-64 disc(ultegra) with Bora 35 wheels

Philbar72
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:47 am

by Philbar72

Treks are highly rated by the 2 people I know who ride them, same with the Bianchi. I just ride a bike and get on with it.

User avatar
mortirolo
Posts: 161
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:08 am
Location: EU

by mortirolo

fromtrektocolnago wrote:
Calnago wrote:Ok, a little history... at this point in time, from a purely functional standpoint it doesn't matter in the least whether it's Italian threaded or English threaded since the ball bearings themselves are never running against the actual surfaces of the cups. But back in the day (yes, I was alive then), and before cartridge Bottom Brackets were prevalent (some of you are probably asking what those are even), the bottom bracket cups screwed directly into the frame, and the ball bearings were loose and rolled against the inner surface of the cup and the axle itself. The directional forces of the balls against the cups would, through the process of precession, act to turn the cups in counterclockwise direction (the normal direction to loosen things). If the bottom bracket cups weren't installed very very tightly, that was enough to often loosen and unthread the entire bottom bracket cup. It happened to me while cycling across the southern US one year on my Basso, and I didn't have a BB tool to keep it tight enough, so for a while, till I got to a major town with a tool to tighten it properly it was a royal pain in the ass. This was not at all uncommon. So, to combat this, the left hand threaded bottom bracket on the drive side (Enlgish) solved this problem completely. Now, if the BB wasn't exactly tight enough, the process of precession would act to tighten it, and not loosen it.

Then came the cartridge bearing Bottom Brackets which were completely self contained and just screwed into the threaded frame shell. The cups were there just to hold the cartridge but the ball bearings themselves never actually spun against them and were contained unto themselves. In fact, with the cartiridge type BB's, it didn't even matter whether or not you faced the frame shell, so long as the threads on both sides of the frame were aligned.

Fast forward to today and there really is absolutely no reason to be using an Italian threaded BB shell, unless you really want to just be different than what the standard has become (at least as far as threaded shells are concerned). Actually, there are no real BB standards these days, but that's another topic.

So why Pinarello still uses the Italian threads is beyond me. It doesn't matter, as the precession process is not relevant with todays BB designs, so functionally it doesn't present the issues that it did in the past, but still.... I guess they just want to hold onto a little bit of their "Italian" heritage, even though it's probably the worst aspect of the Italian heritage they could possibly want to hold onto.


Fantastic contribution. I had once known this but long since forgotten this piece on bottom bracket trivia. Years ago this was the purported reason for the superiority of English threaded design over Italian design but as you point out no longer an issue.


It was long time ago, but ITA BB shell has larger diameter than BSA, I think. So ITA is better, because You can use larger diameter bearing ball or axle. :)
Marco Pantani - Momenti Di Gloria
AX Vial (SR11) <- FELT FC (Record 10) <- LOOK KX (Dura-Ace) <- Specialized EPIC (Superbe Pro)

User avatar
mortirolo
Posts: 161
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:08 am
Location: EU

by mortirolo

My vote: Time Scylon
Marco Pantani - Momenti Di Gloria
AX Vial (SR11) <- FELT FC (Record 10) <- LOOK KX (Dura-Ace) <- Specialized EPIC (Superbe Pro)

fromtrektocolnago
Posts: 1145
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:15 pm

by fromtrektocolnago

@ mortirolo
i highly doubt the italian bb is better for the reason you state. the diameter difference is inconsequential
Colnago C-59 (Dura Ace)
Firefly(Ultegra)
Colnago C-64 disc(ultegra) with Bora 35 wheels

User avatar
Calnago
In Memoriam
Posts: 8612
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

I think @motriolo is joking, a little tongue in cheek maybe, judging by the smiley face. The Italian BB is in fact 1mm wider in diameter or so, not enough make a significant difference in axle or bearing size (you're certainly not going to get a 30mm spindle in there with proper size bearings). But the other difference with Italian is that the shells are 70mm wide, versus 68mm. But big deal... since the bearing locations on the cranks don't change, they just alter the cups. For instance, an Ultratorque BB cup for an Italian BB would be a little narrower than the Ultratorque cup for an English BB, but the location of the bearings are the same. And today, most frame manufacturers have incorporate wider shells anyway... now if they could just make them perfectly round inside, we'd be a lot happier.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

User avatar
alistaird
Posts: 279
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:21 pm

by alistaird

Calnago wrote:I think @motriolo is joking, a little tongue in cheek maybe, judging by the smiley face. The Italian BB is in fact 1mm wider in diameter or so, not enough make a significant difference in axle or bearing size (you're certainly not going to get a 30mm spindle in there with proper size bearings). But the other difference with Italian is that the shells are 70mm wide, versus 68mm. But big deal... since the bearing locations on the cranks don't change, they just alter the cups. For instance, an Ultratorque BB cup for an Italian BB would be a little narrower than the Ultratorque cup for an English BB, but the location of the bearings are the same. And today, most frame manufacturers have incorporate wider shells anyway... now if they could just make them perfectly round inside, we'd be a lot happier.

I hate to disagree with you but an Over Torque (with a 30mm spindle) will fit an Italian or English BB. Italian BB is more complex as there is no Campag cups but others will work e.g. Tune.

A

Sent from my GT-N8013 using Tapatalk

User avatar
Calnago
In Memoriam
Posts: 8612
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

Kind of way off topic now, but isn't there a lot of compromise with having to use teensy bearings with a 30mm spindle or having some kind of huge outboard cup to accommodate "proper" bearings along with the 30mm spindle. The actual hole in the BB is certainly large enough for the 30mm spindle, that's true, but it's the compromises that have to be made in bearings etc that are less than ideal.
I guess my main point was that the difference between the English vs Italian diameters is only a millimeter or so, so it's not as if an ITA bottom bracket is any more adept at accommodating larger spindles than the English BB.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



Post Reply