Dogma F10 vs Madone 9 vs Bianchi oltre 4

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
alistaird
Posts: 119
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:21 pm

by alistaird

Calnago wrote:Kind of way off topic now, but isn't there a lot of compromise with having to use teensy bearings with a 30mm spindle or having some kind of huge outboard cup to accommodate "proper" bearings along with the 30mm spindle. The actual hole in the BB is certainly large enough for the 30mm spindle, that's true, but it's the compromises that have to be made in bearings etc that are less than ideal.
I guess my main point was that the difference between the English vs Italian diameters is only a millimeter or so, so it's not as if an ITA bottom bracket is any more adept at accommodating larger spindles than the English BB.


I can't disagree with this :P :P :P - There is a compromise and I'll have to see how the Tune BB works over time....

A

by Weenie


audiojan
Posts: 756
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2006 1:38 pm
Location: Greater Pittsburgh

by audiojan

Calnago wrote:Kind of way off topic now, but isn't there a lot of compromise with having to use teensy bearings with a 30mm spindle or having some kind of huge outboard cup to accommodate "proper" bearings along with the 30mm spindle. The actual hole in the BB is certainly large enough for the 30mm spindle, that's true, but it's the compromises that have to be made in bearings etc that are less than ideal.
I guess my main point was that the difference between the English vs Italian diameters is only a millimeter or so, so it's not as if an ITA bottom bracket is any more adept at accommodating larger spindles than the English BB.


I'm using Zipp Vuma ITL on my F8, not much of a compromise at all... it's definitely not huge, nor are the bearing teensy...
"Suddenly the thought struck me; my floor is someone elses ceiling" - Nils Ferlin

audiojan
Posts: 756
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2006 1:38 pm
Location: Greater Pittsburgh

by audiojan

It really comes down to personal preference... these 3 are all superb bikes that pretty much anyone would be happy to have. Although, I would probably save some money and get an F8 instead... it really doesn't seem that the difference is going to be enormous, more of a slight evolution... for a $1-2k savings, that's an easy choice.
"Suddenly the thought struck me; my floor is someone elses ceiling" - Nils Ferlin

zappafile123
Posts: 314
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:24 am

by zappafile123

Intuitively I would think that both the Madone and the Oltre would trump the Dogma on the comfort front. However when I rode the Madone for about 20min it didnt seem to be especially adept at absorbing road vibration - when I got back on my Oltre XR2 with Xentis Squads it felt plusher for sure. However the owner of the Madone assured me that once the road surface gets really rough the iso-speed post kicks in. I havent ridden my XR4 yet (still waiting for parts before its built), there are unanimous reports that its very comfortable. A bike thats stiff and responsive but still comfortable yet aero and not overweight is the dream. Since its hard to get a test ride on bikes like these I'd be guided by aesthetics and aggregate real world reports.
Bianchi Oltre XR4 |BMC SLR01 16' |Cannondale SS Evo HM 12'| Focus Izalco Max | Ridley Helium SL 15' | Basso Diamante 15' | Bianchi Oltre XR2 | Scapin Dyseys S8 | Time ZXRS | Giant TCR SL 12' | Ridley Noah 08' | Look 585 | Cervelo Soloist SLC

maxim809
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:28 am

by maxim809

Wondering if the OP ended up with the XR4, and opinions.

I have a Dogma 65.1 and XR4 set up identically expect the brakes, stem length and chainring. Same groupset, wheels, tires, tubes, bartape, saddle, cages, cages, slammed.

No experience on Madone or F8/F10. Random thoughts in no order...

1) Dogma handles precisely in the corners. It feels more planted when countersteering and I just trust it. I become more skiddish on the XR4 on the same tight corners. Simply may be more used to Dogma (7500 miles vs XR4:900 miles). Dogma and believe it or not an entry level Cannondale Synapse 5 have been the best handling bikes imo...

2) There is something therapeutic about how the Dogma beats you up just right. XR4 feels softer, so I don't get or need the therapy.

3) XR4 gets more compliments from the general public, cyclists and non-cyclists alike. It's a cleaner looking bike which appeals to wider audiences, for sure.

4) XR4 direct mount brakes are cool and hip.

5) Mentally I feel faster on a Dogma. Total placebo effect, I know. But having DOGMA plastered on the left side of your down tube does things to you... I just can't ever "unplug". I feel more invisible on the XR4, and thus I feel more relaxed even when I'm hammering.

DavidMLee
Posts: 172
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2015 3:48 pm

by DavidMLee

Legend HT 9.5 RED 22
Colnago C60 Super Record
S-Works Tarmac 2016 eTap
S-Works Tarmac 2015 DA
Cervelo R3 2015 UT
Cervelo S2 2014 UT
Spesh Venge Elite 105

Bely
Posts: 812
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:55 am

by Bely

Didn't end up with any yet but will throw in another - cannondale Super six Evo hm 2017!


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The Harem
Speedvagen | Argonaut 2.0 | Cherubim (S) | Mosaic RT-1 | Festka Scalatore | Pegoretti Responsorium Ciavete | Wilier Cento10Air Ramato | Trek Madone 9

Incoming
English | Field

Ex's:
Factor | Field | Baum | Stinner | F10

zappafile123
Posts: 314
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:24 am

by zappafile123

maxim809 wrote:1) Dogma handles precisely in the corners. It feels more planted when countersteering and I just trust it. I become more skiddish on the XR4 on the same tight corners.

2) There is something therapeutic about how the Dogma beats you up just right. XR4 feels softer, so I don't get or need the therapy.

5) Mentally I feel faster on a Dogma. Total placebo effect, I know... []... I feel more invisible on the XR4, and thus I feel more relaxed even when I'm hammering.


I'll be interested to see if this holds up when I finish building my XR4. Your comments about the handling dont suprise me frankly. Though I loved the XR2, the handling was a little shit because you felt perched up, not particularly stable and it just didnt feel intuitive. Bar the slight decrease in head-tube height/stack and a 2 mm increase in reach, the XR4 geometry is the same as the XR2.

As for softness, and feeling relaxed when you're hammering, thats exactly what Bianchi set out to achieve with the XR4. You should be able to hammer longer than you can on your Dogma. Let us know if this is the case, especially on 4+ hour rides.

Bely wrote:Didn't end up with any yet but will throw in another - cannondale Super six Evo hm 2017!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Bely, honestly I had kinda written Cannondale off as just another boring american brand. I've only just recently put together and old Liquigas Evo Hi-mod and I must say it really is an excellent frame. Originally I had intended it to be a commuter bike because it was stupidly cheap ($600AUD for the frame). There's a certain novel sensation of having light feet when you start climbing. Its one of those frames that feels alive - its not ultra-stiff, but it feels as though it springs along with you (in a good way). I hate to say it, but its right up there on the list of bikes I've owned. As a brand I still think they are uninspiring, but they make a true performance machine well worth considering. Whats a real kicker is people say the latest Evo is even better!
Bianchi Oltre XR4 |BMC SLR01 16' |Cannondale SS Evo HM 12'| Focus Izalco Max | Ridley Helium SL 15' | Basso Diamante 15' | Bianchi Oltre XR2 | Scapin Dyseys S8 | Time ZXRS | Giant TCR SL 12' | Ridley Noah 08' | Look 585 | Cervelo Soloist SLC

Bely
Posts: 812
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:55 am

by Bely

Hey Zappa thanks for the insightful comments!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The Harem
Speedvagen | Argonaut 2.0 | Cherubim (S) | Mosaic RT-1 | Festka Scalatore | Pegoretti Responsorium Ciavete | Wilier Cento10Air Ramato | Trek Madone 9

Incoming
English | Field

Ex's:
Factor | Field | Baum | Stinner | F10

Bely
Posts: 812
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:55 am

by Bely

Hey Zappa thanks for the insightful comments!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The Harem
Speedvagen | Argonaut 2.0 | Cherubim (S) | Mosaic RT-1 | Festka Scalatore | Pegoretti Responsorium Ciavete | Wilier Cento10Air Ramato | Trek Madone 9

Incoming
English | Field

Ex's:
Factor | Field | Baum | Stinner | F10

WuJJ
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:37 pm
Location: Englewood, Colorado

by WuJJ

I've rented both the Dogma F8 Disk (Nov '16) and Madone 9.2 (May '17) and did some riding near San Jose including Mt Hamilton. Both had Ultegra, low profile aluminum rims, and 25c tires. Between the two, I would prefer to own the Dogma.

The Madone was a very cool piece of machinery. Very impressive technology-wise. Climbed surprisingly well for an all out aero road bike. Very stiff BB and responsive out of the saddle. Total race bike. It's like a Ford GT of road bikes. I would consider it if I were a serious racer. However, I just didn't love it.

Reasons I wouldn't want to own a Madone:
- Too much of a headache to work on with all the hidden cables and total integration.
- Although the IsoSpeed decoupler did help dampen road shocks a little for the saddle, a lot of road buzz came through the bars and pedals.
- The Madone had a ton of spacers under the stem as well as a slightly higher BB (Dogma BB drop is 72mm, Madone is 70mm, Oltre is 68mm). I felt higher on the Madone. I wasn't as confident in the corners as the Dogma F8 coming down Mt. Hamilton. My descent times were slower on the Madone even though it's more aerodynamic. Of course there might've been other variables such as wind.
- There were creaking when I was out of the saddle. Pretty sure it was the BB.

The Dogma F8 was very well-rounded.
- Great handling on the descents. F10 has same geometry.
- Comfort/compliance: still more like a race bike than an endurance road bike, but less road buzz than the Madone. It did have 300tpi Vittoria tires.
- BB didn't feel as stiff as the Madone, but still felt efficient for out of the saddle efforts.
- Easier to work on as a home mechanic.
- No creaking with the threaded BB.

I love the looks of the Oltre XR4. It also seems like a very well rounded bike with a good mix of lightweight, aerodynamics, stiffness, comfort, and mechanic friendliness. My only concern is handling as I like low BB heights like my Argon 18 Gallium Pro with 75mm BB drop. Bianchis have a 68mm BB drop. Cervelo dropped the BB 4mm on the new, redesigned R5 to 72mm. I hope this trend continues!

My order of preference would be:
1) Dogma F10
2) Oltre XR4
3) Madone 9
Last edited by WuJJ on Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Current road bikes
Argon 18 Gallium Pro
Colnago C60

Past road bikes
2006 Scott CR1 SL
1999 GT ZR1000

User avatar
Beaver
Posts: 256
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 6:06 pm
Location: Lower Saxony - Germany

by Beaver

Tour tested the F10 to be exactely as aero as the Madone btw.:

https://www.wilier.com/sites/default/fi ... nrader.pdf (German)

Pan
Posts: 58
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:18 pm
Location: New England

by Pan

Madone is lighter than the other bikes thats for sure.
The Dogma and the Oltre are measured in Italian grams, aka, frames before paint.

I chose the F8 over the Oltre X4. The threaded Italian bottom bracket was a + for me and I wanted a black bike. If I get a Bianchi it has to be full blown eye catching Celeste.
Madone has never visually appealed to me, I ride bikes a lot just because I think they're pretty.
2017 Pinarello F8 Dura Ace 9100 @ 7.5kg
2013 Bianchi Infinito 105 @ 8.2kg
1982 Colnago Super Single Speed @ 8.6kg

Delorre
Posts: 866
Joined: Sat May 24, 2014 12:09 pm

by Delorre

Beaver wrote:Tour tested the F10 to be exactely as aero as the Madone btw.:

https://www.wilier.com/sites/default/fi ... nrader.pdf (German)


Does someone have the values (or a pdf link or...) of the F8 Tour test done in 2016? Would be intrestng to see the differences.

FIJIGabe
Posts: 1382
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:07 pm
Location: The Lone Star State

by FIJIGabe

WuJJ wrote:Reasons I wouldn't want to own a Madone:
- Too much of a headache to work on with all the hidden cables and total integration.
- Although the IsoSpeed decoupler did help dampen road shocks a little for the saddle, a lot of road buzz came through the bars and pedals.
- The Madone had a ton of spacers under the stem as well as a slightly higher BB (Dogma BB drop is 72mm, Madone is 70mm, Oltre is 68mm). I felt higher on the Madone. I wasn't as confident in the corners as the Dogma F8 coming down Mt. Hamilton. My descent times were slower on the Madone even though it's more aerodynamic. Of course there might've been other variables such as wind.
- There were creaking when I was out of the saddle. Pretty sure it was the BB.


I just want to rebut some of these issues, as I own a Madone, and do all my own maintenance (DA 9000 mechanical). I respect your opinion, I just think some things need to be addressed.

1. The setup is a pain. No joke, it took me 12 hours to learn how to set up the bike and completely set it up. However, once the cables are run in the housings, replacing them is relatively easy. Since the cables aren't exposed, you can pretty much pull them out the entire way and other than opening the downtube junction port (5 minutes), threading cables is almost as easy as externally cabled. It took me 20 minutes to recable the derailleurs on my bike.

2. The bars do transmit more vibration than my old Madone, but I find the wide bars are comfortable for riding. I usually don't ride on the tops of the bars, because I have big hands and the bars just don't feel natural. Not the case on the Madone - they're big and comfortable.

3. The spacers can be a bit much. Did you go with an H1 or H2 fit on the bike? I could have gone with an H1, but I decided that I rather have the bars as low as possible on an H2, rather than have a stack of spacers underneath.

4. The creaking was probably coming from the bars. BB90 doesn't have cups in the traditional BB30 way, rather, the bearings sit in the frame. I've never had creaking in any of my Treks. That being said, my Madone did give me an issue with creaking, and I tracked it down to the headset. It has the upper and lower bearing, and a spacer that sits inside the upper bearing that directs the internal cables and holds them in position. That's where I was getting the creaking, and I remedied it by putting a little grease on the bearing. Voila!
Madone 9 https://goo.gl/7UwZpV
Crockett https://goo.gl/f5PdCN
Madone 5 https://goo.gl/cMdyFo

Madone 4, Cobia. I own a lot of Treks.

by Weenie


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