2017 PINARELLO F10
Moderator: robbosmans
I don't think a concave down tube is all that inventive for a bicycle. The analysis by Zipp a decade earlier shows a rim profile with a tube resting inside an airfoil concave shape leads to lower drag. Seat post shielded in aero shaped seat tube elements date back much further (Botechhia and Look from the 1980's I believe). Even the split down tubes of the Colnagos from the similar time period could be considered shielding a water bottle.
Toys-R-Usichobi wrote:. . but theres nothing you will miss out if you get a top end canyon instead. Unless of course you want a Pinarello and like their design.
Or a Giant, or any other Chinese frameset. Where you lose with Pinarello is spending a ton on a cookie cutter frame made by Giant or Martec and getting a crappy two year warranty.
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So, Pinarello fire back.
"Referring to “Open letter to Cicli Pinarello SpA” published by Mr. Victor Major, CEO of Velocite Tech, on velocite- bikes.com, Cicli Pinarello states the following.
Cicli Pinarello SpA, as a leading company in the cycling sector, obviously takes Intellectual Property issues with the utmost seriousness, Pinarello itself being a patent holder.
While it is true that Mr. Major, through his Taiwanese law firm, wrote to Pinarello on July 2016, it is also true that Pinarello promptly answered (on the 4th of August), through its law firm, clearly and unmistakably pointing out that Mr. Major’s communication was lacking essential information since it did not identify which of Pinarello’s products were contested nor did it give any explanation as to why such products would allegedly infringe Mr. Major’s patents. Providing this information is not ancillary but mandatory when an infringement is alleged.
Pinarello’s patent attorneys not only asked Mr. Major’s attorneys to clarify his position, but also pointed out that Pinarello’s reply was to be expected “not earlier than mid of September 2016, provided that, in the meantime, we will have received the information mentioned above”, information that Pinarello was still waiting to receive from Mr. Major when he decided to post his “Open letter”.
In the same letter, Pinarello’s patent attorneys also brought to Mr. Major’s attention the fact that bicycles with aerodynamic frames have been on the market for years, even going so far as to provide an example.
Neither the requested information nor any reply was sent by Mr. Major in response to Pinarello’s request for clarifications, which have now been provided by Mr. Major in his “Open letter”.
Despite his own fault in not answering Pinarello’s request for clarifications, Mr. Major chose to publicly write his “Open letter” and to depict Pinarello as a sort of “thief”, who uses a patented design without permission and does not respond to legal letters.
Although Pinarello can understand that his behavior may procure Mr. Major a rise in his notoriety, that same behavior is deeply unfair, since Mr. Major himself is perfectly aware that he chose not to discuss the issue with Pinarello.
Cicli Pinarello SpA was, and is, available to discuss the matter with Mr. Major, but will not tolerate and will take appropriate actions against any unsupported allegation, explicit or implicit, of being an infringer or a “thief”."
"Referring to “Open letter to Cicli Pinarello SpA” published by Mr. Victor Major, CEO of Velocite Tech, on velocite- bikes.com, Cicli Pinarello states the following.
Cicli Pinarello SpA, as a leading company in the cycling sector, obviously takes Intellectual Property issues with the utmost seriousness, Pinarello itself being a patent holder.
While it is true that Mr. Major, through his Taiwanese law firm, wrote to Pinarello on July 2016, it is also true that Pinarello promptly answered (on the 4th of August), through its law firm, clearly and unmistakably pointing out that Mr. Major’s communication was lacking essential information since it did not identify which of Pinarello’s products were contested nor did it give any explanation as to why such products would allegedly infringe Mr. Major’s patents. Providing this information is not ancillary but mandatory when an infringement is alleged.
Pinarello’s patent attorneys not only asked Mr. Major’s attorneys to clarify his position, but also pointed out that Pinarello’s reply was to be expected “not earlier than mid of September 2016, provided that, in the meantime, we will have received the information mentioned above”, information that Pinarello was still waiting to receive from Mr. Major when he decided to post his “Open letter”.
In the same letter, Pinarello’s patent attorneys also brought to Mr. Major’s attention the fact that bicycles with aerodynamic frames have been on the market for years, even going so far as to provide an example.
Neither the requested information nor any reply was sent by Mr. Major in response to Pinarello’s request for clarifications, which have now been provided by Mr. Major in his “Open letter”.
Despite his own fault in not answering Pinarello’s request for clarifications, Mr. Major chose to publicly write his “Open letter” and to depict Pinarello as a sort of “thief”, who uses a patented design without permission and does not respond to legal letters.
Although Pinarello can understand that his behavior may procure Mr. Major a rise in his notoriety, that same behavior is deeply unfair, since Mr. Major himself is perfectly aware that he chose not to discuss the issue with Pinarello.
Cicli Pinarello SpA was, and is, available to discuss the matter with Mr. Major, but will not tolerate and will take appropriate actions against any unsupported allegation, explicit or implicit, of being an infringer or a “thief”."
That was not a good idea from the start...
I don't know for sure obviously... but Pinarello's response seems based a lot more on actual facts and real timelines that what Victor has presented. In any case, it's not going to be settled here, and if he really believes he's got a valid claim that is enforceable, then he needs to take it to the legal system (good luck). In the meantime, Pinarello is actually bringing it to market as something the buying public can actually get their hands on, instead of it sitting in a patent office as an idea filed away on a piece of paper. Patent law can get quite complex and tricky I'm sure, with a whole lot of grey areas, but I hope it doesn't approximate the registration of internet domain names, where people just register random names they think someone somewhere might have a use for in the future, then sell them to the people who actually do come up with a good business idea that the name would fit.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ
Calnago wrote:Patent law can get quite complex and tricky I'm sure, with a whole lot of grey areas, but I hope it doesn't approximate the registration of internet domain names, where people just register random names they think someone somewhere might have a use for in the future, then sell them to the people who actually do come up with a good business idea that the name would fit.
Unfortunately in some areas you just hit the nail on the head. Not saying at all that it applies to Velocite, but google "patent troll" and prepare to be appalled
Calnago, to be fair, Veocite is developing the idea into the Syn which is an interesting frame beyond just this feature. I don't recall how long it's been on my radar, but he's talked about it on forums for a while now. I think there are some frames in the field for testing, but I'm not quite sure where it's at in its development.
Victor made a couple of responses on the blog post he linked about prior art already being considered in granting the patent, and clarifies that the patent deals with dimensions that specifically cover the whole bottle. Obviously there have been frames with concave downtubes, but any in the specific application he's talking about (fully shielding the bottle)?
I mean prior to the torodial rim patent Zipp and HED shared, there were obviously rounded rims, but the patent dealt specifically how to round the rims for aerodynamic efficiency (rim wider than the tire). So, I can see that there might be a legitimate claim here, but again have no idea. Until it gets to the courts, it's just an interesting angle in an industry that's small enough that we got Gary Fisher weighing in on the matter
Victor made a couple of responses on the blog post he linked about prior art already being considered in granting the patent, and clarifies that the patent deals with dimensions that specifically cover the whole bottle. Obviously there have been frames with concave downtubes, but any in the specific application he's talking about (fully shielding the bottle)?
I mean prior to the torodial rim patent Zipp and HED shared, there were obviously rounded rims, but the patent dealt specifically how to round the rims for aerodynamic efficiency (rim wider than the tire). So, I can see that there might be a legitimate claim here, but again have no idea. Until it gets to the courts, it's just an interesting angle in an industry that's small enough that we got Gary Fisher weighing in on the matter
BeeSeeBee wrote:Victor made a couple of responses on the blog post he linked about prior art already being considered in granting the patent, and clarifies that the patent deals with dimensions that specifically cover the whole bottle. Obviously there have been frames with concave downtubes, but any in the specific application he's talking about (fully shielding the bottle)?
I do have some trouble with this. Practically all aero frames on the market have been getting significantly wider and using some kind of full kamm tail or bottle shielding flatback. So anyone who takes the previously demonstrated concave downtube and puts in on a new bike will be naturally using a wider version. That's just progress.
Victor mentioned a difference being the prupose of the design - but does the intention behind a shape change what that shape actually is
Yeah, I agree that it does seem like a pretty obvious iterative design direction with a lot of designs changing their downtube shapes to really shield the bottles as of late. Same, I have no idea if purpose is an argument or not in patent cases, hopefully Victor keeps updating so we can watch this whole thing unfold 
On the F10 though, it seems like it's a pretty well refined frame with without straying far from the F8, not a whole to be said without many major changes. My friend showed me an older Prince he was looking at buying (squiggle style) and I was reminded how much better their bikes look now (fortunately the price was just for the groupset and the bike way over his budget, so I don't have to look at it
).
On the F10 though, it seems like it's a pretty well refined frame with without straying far from the F8, not a whole to be said without many major changes. My friend showed me an older Prince he was looking at buying (squiggle style) and I was reminded how much better their bikes look now (fortunately the price was just for the groupset and the bike way over his budget, so I don't have to look at it
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gewichtweenie
- Posts: 152
- Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 3:12 pm
Nefarious86 wrote:And you think he was personally ticking off every action at the time? They had free reign to go on a witch hunt after the counterfit issue. But again, the internet is always more well informed than those involved.
What's the point of a head role if not responsible or accountable for actins of those below?
If my dog rummages through your yard and destroys your garden without my instruction, I'm absolved, right?
You don't think that Sinyard going up to Alberta to apologize to the shop owner in person, making a public apology with him, and stating they would change their policies is taking responsibility? Specialized got raked over the coals during the week this was going on, and obviously still years later, so what else are you looking for, an actual public flogging?
Sounds way beyond satisfactory to me. Sometimes wanting to take the side of David in David vs. Goliath can also go too far.
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Nefarious86
- Moderator
- Posts: 3669
- Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 4:57 am
^^ This, most of the big industry players at that point in time were on a witch hunt due to counterfit products landing people in hospital. The law firms acting on behalf of each company would have been handed a breif on what to attack, this unfortunately spilled off in a direction that wasn't anticipated by Mike and his team. Once he got word of the shit hitting the fan he shut it down and went about making amends that both parties beleved were satisfactory. Mike wore the egg on his face and took it like a man, apologized for the error face to face and put in further assurances to make sure it never happens again, Roubaix cafe gained world wide publicity with this and the Specialized hatters foammed at the mouth on half a story....
So as for the dog digging up the garden? I think the very public embarasment for Mike his team and the time put into amending their paitent protection policies was punishment enough for what was essentially a letter that was torn up as quick as it was issued.
If what Pina has said about the lack of response from Velocite is true then it is in fact very poor form to be penning public letters on half truths and missing information. I will be surprised if they don't bite back over the bad PR if what they say is true.
So as for the dog digging up the garden? I think the very public embarasment for Mike his team and the time put into amending their paitent protection policies was punishment enough for what was essentially a letter that was torn up as quick as it was issued.
If what Pina has said about the lack of response from Velocite is true then it is in fact very poor form to be penning public letters on half truths and missing information. I will be surprised if they don't bite back over the bad PR if what they say is true.
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