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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:29 pm 
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Lafolie wrote:
I wonder if this is why they have now moved frame production to Bosnia.


Part of the production is in Kotor Varos, Bosnia in an Italian manufacturing center (Sportek) owned by Diamant. Nothing to do with outsourcing to China etc.

google translate from:
http://paolodellacorte.photoshelter.com ... YZuid57EE/

"Made in Italy in Kotor Varos [...] Sportek, Padua branch of DMT, which made Kotor Varos the most important European center for the production of high-end sports shoes [...] it is estimated that more than 58 Italian companies have invested in Bosnia more than 130 million, creating an interchange of more than one billion [...] Sportek of Kotor Varos that deserves special attention not only for his achievements, but for the working model that led by the Ministry of Labour and the President of the Republic of Srpska, company official awards, certified class a for the quality of working conditions of employees [...] as part of the relocation project abroad of Padua of Diamant DMT, brand founded in 1978 and today is well known to those who practice professional cycling [...] employ nearly 1,000 employees for 70% women, with an estimated turnover of more than EUR 5 million [...] Sportek are produced footwear high-end Nike and Diamant [...] MCipollini for the production of components and by professional racing bicycles has the recognition by part of the world known companies of technical sports footwear, as a research and development center of football boots and cycle."

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:46 pm 
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kgt wrote:
Obviously one can guide the di2 cables throught the top tube or the down tube. It's not that there is one 'correct' way to do it. That's why there are these two options. You see that there is not a hole in the down tube either, just a cover that can be drilled or not. So a toptube or downtube hole is drilled by the LBS only after the rider decides what he prefers. No? What do the instructions following the frame say?

@kgt: Are you saying that Cippollini actually intentionally does not create certain holes for cable routing that may be necessary, and leaves that up to the dealer/customer to decide which routing to use and drill their frames accordingly? I don't know, I'm asking. But if that's the case, all I can say is Wow, that's a first to my knowledge. I've never known a manufacturer to endorse drilling a hole in their frames by anyone other than the manufacturer. That in itself is a huge Quality Control issue.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:56 pm 
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Calnago wrote:
kgt wrote:
Obviously one can guide the di2 cables throught the top tube or the down tube. It's not that there is one 'correct' way to do it. That's why there are these two options. You see that there is not a hole in the down tube either, just a cover that can be drilled or not. So a toptube or downtube hole is drilled by the LBS only after the rider decides what he prefers. No? What do the instructions following the frame say?

@kgt: Are you saying that Cippollini actually intentionally does not create certain holes for cable routing that may be necessary, and leaves that up to the dealer/customer to decide which routing to use and drill their frames accordingly? I don't know, I'm asking. But if that's the case, all I can say is Wow, that's a first to my knowledge. I've never known a manufacturer to endorse drilling a hole in their frames by anyone other than the manufacturer. That in itself is a huge Quality Control issue.[/quo



Indeed....good point


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:51 pm 
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jwfinesse wrote:
Maybe it's because the one-piece monocoque frames are costly to build and equally expensive to throw out when they fail QC, while bonding two triangles together can come out much more controlled and cheaper.

Another reason I buy Time frames.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:13 pm 
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This is funny, years ago when i was looking to buy a C59, the dealer told me, they always go through every frame and take those that have flaws away.
It was most paint imperfections but not only.
So surely there's frames coming through no matter what brand. A guy overhere just sent his Epic back as it had a big indent in the downtube.
The importer told the dealer, it was supposed to be like this. So there are crappy importers and there are good ones.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:11 am 
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Ok, it strarts clearing up:

http://www.mcipollini.com/files/pdf/ass ... s-NK1K.pdf

It's clear (p. 10) that the round hole is valid, but it is not clear if it is opened from the start or not.

OTOH the NK1K disc version has the hole unopened as in jwfinesse's case (see p. 9)
http://www.mcipollini.com/files/pdf/ass ... -brake.pdf

As jwfinesse wrote the fact that this is a 100% monocoque makes much more difficult-costly to alter the mould each time another design option is preferred. That's fair IMO. Cipollini is the only manufacturer I know that still makes real monocoques. Considering that many made in China frames cost as much I would give Cipollini a credit.

Anyway, there are a few NK1K users in this forum, they could illuminate us.

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Last edited by kgt on Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:38 am 
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So is a part of cipollini production occurring in Bosnia (regardless of whether it's executed under Italian oversight) or is it done by a Bosnian firm in Italy?

I only ask because it was a big justification for their initial pricing. I noticed many models have indeed seen price adjustments.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:12 pm 
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Yes, a part of the production has moved to Bosnia in an italian factory owned and run by Zecchetto family (Diamant Group, DMT shoes etc.). But I don't think that is the reason of lowering the prices, the competition always is.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:22 pm 
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MyM3Coupe wrote:
jwfinesse wrote:
Maybe it's because the one-piece monocoque frames are costly to build and equally expensive to throw out when they fail QC, while bonding two triangles together can come out much more controlled and cheaper.

Another reason I buy Time frames.


Why is that so? Do TIME throw out frames that fail the QC test? They've lost a lot of limelight over the years and have completely disappeared from the Tour.

Only thing I know is that they weave their own carbon fibre in house and use RTM instead of the usual prepreg methods.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:26 pm 
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All I am hearing at the moment is about defects and faults with the frames. :-( Doesn't fill me with confidence to actually buy one !


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:17 pm 
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You are right, you better not. Crappy frames.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:58 pm 
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At the new price points, I find the RB1K with Italian champion paint scheme extremely desirable. You need to be very flexible for such a short headtube though.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:37 pm 
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kgt wrote:
You are right, you better not. Crappy frames.



well........what can I say :-)


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:56 pm 
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would appear another issue with forks

https://www.westbrookcycles.co.uk/cipol ... -issue-i64


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:12 pm 
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@kgt : "... a pressfit bottom bracket shell that you can push the cups into by hand should not be allowed out the door, period"

Tell this to Wilier... they statement is "it is fine" :mrgreen: and I have it in written form with their logo :shock:

QC : at this price point EVERY SINGLE PIECE should be mastered to perfection. Those which not fit to highest achievable standard : crashed.

Manufacturing cost ( so potential loss ) of 1 high end road bike frameset from well known brand visible at pro peloton is around 300-500€ incl 20% of EU VA Tax. For manufacturer margin is ENORMOUS, same as greed level leading to releasing crap stuff to shops/dealers.

MC is not the only one making "real" mono frames : BH does for few years already ( started with current gen of G6/Quartz/Aerolight )- just one example.

Fact is, that nowadays most of frame "manufacturers" ( funny, their manufacture without factory... miracle :mrgreen: ) ask more for less. But it is our ( clients ) fault . Our approval for less than absolte perfection for -what they call- high end product , lead them to deliver poorly engineered/ made product with enormous amount of issues like for very simple product which bicycle frame is.

If frames start to be returned to shops/ manufacturers for every issue that is obvious ... and perhaps some loud legal fights against them ( in USofA if you can win because coffee was to hot ? ;) ) - perhaps this stuff would become as it should be.

Nothing motivates better than big money loss and bad press :)

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Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:12 pm 


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