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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:21 pm 
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I think it's a problem when you can't have a discussion with the company directly.
In this case Cipo.
Some companies tend to shoot the problem over to the dealers, which ofcourse try to keep a line of keeping the customer from not pulling the larm (posting all sorts of pics and info all over the forums), and the manufacturer/ designer they dare probably not go over to harsh with as this is a business.
Those so called issues i have had, i have not had any serious help from the dealers.
I think they have been ridiculously bent towards only letting the manufacturer decide on all aspects what is to be done, .. or not!

I have turned directly to the source when i have had issues that really needs to be solved.
It's just an idea, to keep calm, be very specific and think over what you say or write.
The minute you start to behave like an idiot or come up with stupid comments, things will not go well.
Do this and you smoke yourself!

I have had serious issues with some dealers/shops coming up with all sorts of s**t and that goes for some big importers to.
Overhere, where i live, it is easy to get help and in contact directly with the importers.
I have even visited some distributor and checked things directly at their facility/ office.

In Germany, i literally made one dealer mad when i tried to solve an issue with an importer.
Thing is, if it were not for us who buy (drooling big boys), they would not have anything.
It's easy to be a tough guy behind a screen. That is the big problem these days.

It's not until something goes south we see what we really got, except for a product.
It's sad to say, but some dealers are so slick and sweet talk alot, until something shi**y happens.

Outsourcing is ofcourse a way to minimize labour costs but also, who pays for a faulty made product?
If i build my bike at my facility, cost is on me. If i design a bike which is tested and design is going through with flying colors.
Bike is built at a low labour cost country, i am sure those are also picking up the cost for a replacement frame.
So in this case, Cipo save those money if a frame is replaced.

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Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:21 pm 


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:25 am 
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I hate the dealer - shop relationship. I warrantied a Scott frame at a local shop I frequent and I felt bad because they got caught in the middle even though I didn't buy the frame there (moved coasts, they were the closest Scott dealer).
These types of issues end up being major headaches for the lbs, who end up doing a bunch of labor for which they aren't being compensated for. Of course if you drop $6k at a local shop, they're much more motivated to take care of you, but when it's a decision or qc issue they have no control over it sucks to get blamed for it.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:45 am 
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Lafolie wrote:
would appear another issue with forks
https://www.westbrookcycles.co.uk/cipol ... -issue-i64


?
That was more than 1,5 year ago, had to do with very few frames and was only posted on westbrookcycles for some reason.

My dear Lafolie there is no point in opening a new thread asking for advice about a frame that you have already rejected. It's maybe the third thread you are opening asking for opinions about different frames. You better do your search first before we loose our time...

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:20 pm 
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kgt wrote:
Lafolie wrote:
would appear another issue with forks
https://www.westbrookcycles.co.uk/cipol ... -issue-i64


?
That was more than 1,5 year ago, had to do with very few frames and was only posted on westbrookcycles for some reason.

My dear Lafolie there is no point in opening a new thread asking for advice about a frame that you have already rejected. It's maybe the third thread you are opening asking for opinions about different frames. You better do your search first before we loose our time...



My dear friend........I opened the thread to ask about the NK1K. As I was genuinely interested. I cannot help if people post bad experiences. You are obviously a self styled Cippolini expert and we sincerely bow to your superior knowledge :roll: Why are you getting so upset....do you own the company. I never for one moment opened this thread to court negative comments, but obviously people feel the need to express their feelings !

Happy New Year to you !


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:29 pm 
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Not upset at all.
You write "all I am hearing at the moment is about defects and faults with the frames" (judging by what?) and then you post a fork recall of 2015 as "another issue with forks"...
That's why my comment.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:49 pm 
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Location: FIN
In EU original buyer doesn't have to deal with shop nor importer. By the law we do have 2y "warranty" given by seller ( mandatory, local regulations for b2c applies ). Also we do have guarantee ( voluntary ) given by manufacturer ! And at that point shop/ importer is NOT a party anymore.

few years back had issue with ignorant "expert" at Evans Cycles ( frame cracked because of user fault : using it at cold weather ....in June... ) , I informed Evans that I'll use BMC 3y guarantee and ask to redirect my claim to apropriate BMC department. They(BMC) replied SAME DAY. I sent images of damage, have been asked to cut frame and to send images again- AND SAME DAY as BMC received proof of destoying frame I got tracking number for the new one. Within 7 working days I got new frame at doorstep.

Good service ? I would say EXCELLENT. Now, even if BMC frames do not ( but they do ) perform as good as others, I would choose it again, because their aftersales service fully justifies their claims ( and accordingly pricing ) for being premium brand.

OP got money back immediately, as I understood, so it seems that MC service in that matter was more than fine ( being MM at Cipo I would send as well to unfortunate client bottle of best Italian wine as personal apologies for inconvinience) , HOWEVER quality issue (BB accuracy ) shouldn't happened EVER to such brand & for such money.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:47 pm 
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Location: Wherever there's a mountain beckoning to be climbed
Technical Specifications tab of http://www.mcipollini.com/en/biciclette/nk1k wrote:
Made Monocoque
Frame Material Carb. T1000.m46J
Fork Material Carb. T1000
DIRECT MOUNT Fixing screv m6X28,9mm
DISC BRAKE Front thru-axle: ø12, tread 1,5 mm length 100 mm.
Rear thru-axle: ø12, tread 1,5 mm length 142 mm
Frame weight Size M not painted - 1120gr
Frame weight Size M not painted - 1150gr
B. Bracket BB386 (86,5x46mm)
Sizes XXS - XS - S - M - L - XL - XXL
The weight Of the frame kit NK1K painted may vary slightly on the basis of craftsmanship and manual during production.
Cipo can't even decide how much an unpainted size M weighs.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:50 pm 
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Rim brake version 1120gr and disc version 1150gr maybe..?
Claimed weights are very accurate as you see (see thread's p. 1).

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:08 pm 
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There is this photo at p. 1 :

Image

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:23 pm 
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stormur wrote:
OP got money back immediately, as I understood, so it seems that MC service in that matter was more than fine ( being MM at Cipo I would send as well to unfortunate client bottle of best Italian wine as personal apologies for inconvinience) , HOWEVER quality issue (BB accuracy ) shouldn't happened EVER to such brand & for such money.

I agree. Finally MS's service was at it should but such quality issues (as a non perfect BB) should never be related to premium brands such us MC. However, the truth is that MC's manufacturing quality is, generally speaking, very very good. I don't know if you have ever seen a MC frame up close. It is a work of art really.
From targetcomposites.co.uk:
"The most beautiful frame I’ve worked on to date. Hard edges are notoriously difficult to make look elegant, that’s why when you think of the majority of stunning sports cars they have flowing curves. Only the best designers can achieve the same results with hard lines. This frame is up there with Lamborghini in my opinion".

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:22 pm 
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When talking about Bottom Brackets, and this is a general statement, not directed at Cippolini, it is inherently more difficult to control the manufacturing tolerances in a molded carbon shell than an alloy shell. While a pressfit tolerance should always be a "pressfit" tolerance (not an insert by hand and spin it around kind of tolerance), even pressfit BB's that you have to press in with the proper tool are often not very concentric, or at least not as concentric as they should be, leading to creaking issues etc. It's why many pressift cups were/are made out of delrin, to conform to these imperfections. In my experience, I think some of most chronic tolerance issues come from Cannondale, which is ironic since they were the ones that really foisted this stuff upon us in a big way in the first place. Oh well... progress marches on, for better or worse.

But as for leaving it up to the customer/dealer to drill cable ports in the carbon frame, I don't get that at all, if that's in fact what Cioppolini does. There are way too many chances for screwing things up. A dull bit and/or a heavy hand could cause a shabby hole and possibly some stress risers which could ultimately be the source of a crack which propagates further. I know there's often redundant holes left over (so ugly) after a build due to frames being made for both mechanical and electric shifting options, but I wish frame manufacturers would do a better job of providing nice cable port covers that blend with the frame.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:55 pm 
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But you already trust your LBS, or even yourself, to cut your fork's steerer tube. Drilling a small hole on a pre-specified spot is much less crucial IMHO.
BTW if you read MC's manual you 'll see that all is needed, including port covers, is provided.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:43 pm 
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Sheesh @Kgt, I was trying to help you out a bit by pointing out that BB imperfections in carbon shells are far from limited to Cippolini.

But having the customer/dealer drill out cable routing holes in your frame is a first to my knowledge. Firstly, several things can go wrong there as I pointed out in my previous post. But mostly... the only reason you would want to wait (and it is a good one), is to be able to avoid having an unsightly redundant hole in your frame. I get that. But they've already made an ugly redundant dent there, so what's the difference. It's not clean looking. It may as well have a sticker covering it saying "Drill here", with a little arrow pointing to the downtube and another sticker saying "Or here". So, either way, it doesn't avoid the redundant ugliness. As a basic level of quality control, you don't leave those types of drillings to the customer/dealer.

Cutting a fork is basic frame build stuff, every shop has the proper tools and know how to do that (yet they still manage to screw it up sometimes). It's like hemming a pair of pants that are too long when you buy them. You throw away the piece you cut off, it does not affect the structural stability of the frame or steertube in any way. But what do you think they'd say if you said "Hey, I want to drill a couple of holes in my steertube between the top bearing and bottom bearing of my headtube so I can run those unsightly electric wires a little more cleanly". Ha, there's an instant voided warranty I'm sure.

In sum, if that's what Cippolini really does (provides two indents in the frame leaving it to the customer to drill a hole in one or the other), then so be it. It saves them the cost of doing it. But it hasn't achieved the purpose of making it cleaner, since you've still got a big dent where the hole you didn't drill would have been. So what's the point.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:27 pm 
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I know a few cipo dealers and I have never seen or heard of their mechanics directed to drill holes into their frames. I do not think cipo advises their dealers to drill into finished frames. Doing so would be a warranty disaster waiting to happen. I tend to think it's more of the manufacturer saving money by not updating the mold


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:05 pm 
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I would tend to agree with you @Seedster if it weren't for @kgt saying that's what they do. And he does seem to be the Cippolini rep on this forum. Perhaps @kgt is mistaken about this?

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Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:05 pm 


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