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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 7:20 pm 
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- Why most of your groupsets and wheels look so bad?

Yeah, it'd be offending, but for me it's about the only (yet big) issue with them. Not pretending Campy, Sram, or other numerous wheel manufactures always do stellar jobs, yet Shimano has been pretty bad, so consistently bad with their appearances, regardless of any grade, any era.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 7:49 pm 
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Location: Pack filler
pdlpsher1 wrote:
jekyll man wrote:
pdlpsher1 wrote:
trimenc wrote:
When will we see wireless Di2? Real WIREless (No wires at all)


I could see wireless as beneficial on a MTB where it's more difficult to have internal wiring. But on a road bike I really don't see a need. Nowadays bike manufacturers are including internal mechanical/electronic wire routing options. Once the wires are installed (easily using the magnet tool) the benefits of a wired system outweighs a wireless system.



Assemble many bikes (as in for a living), and you will see what the true benefits of a wireless system are.
Build time drastically reduced.

Performance benefit? Negligible, but then again i dont see the improvement over mechanical anyway.


It really doesn't take long to route several cables inside a frame. How much time do you save?



Reread what I wrote.
I wasn't talking about pdlpshr1, and his n+1 experience of maybe building his baby up. I'm talking about the guys in shops, on the factory floor assembling the things everyday.
Remember, not all bikes are created equal. Things can vary drastically between designs and build quality as to how to easy it might be to "pop a few wires through". Esp the case with carbon frames and what is left in there, and BB designs.
Also internally routed bars.
Have you ever cabled up a TT bike with an integrated front end? Even aero road bars such as aeronovas can be a pain if they want.
Any snagging is a potential problem later on; there are plenty of stories of poor connections in frames to batteries, on gear levers, which all take time to diagnose and correct.

From a manufacturers POV, wireless etap must be a godsend. None of that hassle; just bolt something on the outside and its done. Also a few minutes here, a few there, and all of a sudden, their output has increased. If a process can be removed, everyone's a winner.





Back to the original topic; why is the finish on the chainsets so poor? Scuffs off the minute you look at it?

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Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 7:49 pm 


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 8:11 pm 
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Re what @jekyll_man just wrote... completely agree. The cost savings in time assembling a bike is huge if you don't have to use cables. I know how long I spend to make sure the cabling is just right, and I wouldn't want to be on the clock doing it. Still, I prefer the end result of a mechanical system done right. From a performance standpoint, the benefit of wireless is nil and there are downsides as well.

To Shimano... have you changed the 90 degree bend cable routing in your mechanical shifters to help with the cable breaking issue?

_________________
Colnago C60 - PR99
C59 Five Years Later
My Special Colnago EPQ
Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:32 pm 
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Posts: 407
jekyll man wrote:
pdlpsher1 wrote:
jekyll man wrote:
pdlpsher1 wrote:
trimenc wrote:
When will we see wireless Di2? Real WIREless (No wires at all)


I could see wireless as beneficial on a MTB where it's more difficult to have internal wiring. But on a road bike I really don't see a need. Nowadays bike manufacturers are including internal mechanical/electronic wire routing options. Once the wires are installed (easily using the magnet tool) the benefits of a wired system outweighs a wireless system.



Assemble many bikes (as in for a living), and you will see what the true benefits of a wireless system are.
Build time drastically reduced.

Performance benefit? Negligible, but then again i dont see the improvement over mechanical anyway.


It really doesn't take long to route several cables inside a frame. How much time do you save?



Reread what I wrote.
I wasn't talking about pdlpshr1, and his n+1 experience of maybe building his baby up. I'm talking about the guys in shops, on the factory floor assembling the things everyday.
Remember, not all bikes are created equal. Things can vary drastically between designs and build quality as to how to easy it might be to "pop a few wires through". Esp the case with carbon frames and what is left in there, and BB designs.
Also internally routed bars.
Have you ever cabled up a TT bike with an integrated front end? Even aero road bars such as aeronovas can be a pain if they want.


That's why I like the concept of the FSA system with the wireless front, but wired rear. Wired rear is a breeze to install and you don't have all the aesthetic issues of the front with the wireless levers, and you don't have the ugly looking etap battery on the rear deraileur. No doubt FSA's execution will be poor though.

So leading back to the OP's post .... question them on the patents that are out there for a similar system to FSA's. And, is that why the Di2 system is being delayed?

And while you are at it, with the injuries that resulted from 9000 cassette failures ... how close did they get to deciding on a recall?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:38 pm 
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Hello all, my first post here. I'd love to ask why it is that Dura Ace mechanical doesn't have multi-shift functions like Campagnolo has in their Chorus and up group. It seems crazy as hell they don't have it. I can navigate through my gears (Super Record) as fast, if not faster than an electric gear set. For me it's a deal breaker.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:02 am 
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Posts: 68
Why oh why cant we have a 11, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20, 22, 24, 26, 27, 28 cassette! Or any custom spec cassette for that matter.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:54 am 
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Where's a good bar and lets have a drink.

That way you could ask much more than one question and get the real answers.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 2:55 am 
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When are cable groupsets going to be totally eliminated?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:21 pm 
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Posts: 80
F45 wrote:
When are cable groupsets going to be totally eliminated?

I'm going to say never, as it's like the time in the '70s when quartz watches came to be, and talk of the demise of the mechanical watch commonplace. It never happened as many saw the beauty of a nice mechanical watch.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:29 pm 
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It's more likely that eventually people will come to a realization of "uh... why did we go electric in the first place... it needs batteries, it needs charging, the updates are annoying and things aren't compatible in a very short period of time, and when it stops I can't figure out what's wrong with it... and oh yeah, it doesn't do anything that my mechanical system didn't do, except I had more control over my mechanical shifting and my mechanical system is so much prettier to look at... and it's a bicycle... pure and simple. I want to go back, please, take me back".
:beerchug:

_________________
Colnago C60 - PR99
C59 Five Years Later
My Special Colnago EPQ
Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR


Last edited by Calnago on Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:50 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:55 pm
Posts: 35
I have a couple of electric groupset bikes in the fleet, and as much as I like certain things about they shifting, my underlining concern is always reliability. One bike had a niggle where it just would die mid ride, once on 100 mile ride and then again on 25 mile TT - that seemed to get sorted with a firmware update (something for most people would be fairly simple, but as a Mac user it meant I had to take it to a shop) has left me untrusting of having no mechanical bikes in the fleet.

At present would feel uncomfortable going abroad on a training camp or holiday without a cable operated bike.

Next build is going to be mechanical again replacing a trusted mechanical bike that I have taken on all my foreign jaunts!


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 11:56 pm 
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Posts: 256
Location: Australia
This is fun....

-Why do you insist on 24mm spindle and not 30mm?
-Why are your mech STI shifters so damn heavy compared to SRAM- I mean Dura Ace is like 100g more than SRAM...
-Why do you continue to use exotic materials in your top of the line cassettes (CFRP and Titanium) yet they aren't that light and often creak?
-Why do you change the BCD off your road and mtb cranks at every product refresh?
-Why did it take you until 2016 to offer a KMC/SRAM style quick link chain connector?


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 1:16 am 
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Posts: 15
Location: NC USA
Why isn't the sprint shifter port available on Di2 hydro levers?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 1:52 am 
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Calnago wrote:
It's more likely that eventually people will come to a realization of "uh... why did we go electric in the first place... it needs batteries, it needs charging, the updates are annoying and things aren't compatible in a very short period of time, and when it stops I can't figure out what's wrong with it... and oh yeah, it doesn't do anything that my mechanical system didn't do, except I had more control over my mechanical shifting and my mechanical system is so much prettier to look at... and it's a bicycle... pure and simple. I want to go back, please, take me back".
:beerchug:


I like mechanical. I just don't like the way Shimano does it. They should design a linear pull that doesn't require a 90 degree bend inside the shifter or put gummy coatings on their cables and then charge $20 for two shifter cables.


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Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 1:52 am 


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:09 am 
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Ha, re the 90 degree cable bend... that was my request about a page ago... and you're right about the fuzzy coating on cables as well. But I guess they've got a nice little revenue stream going from people having to replace cables far too frequently... are you saying they haven't changed that in the new shifters? If not, shame on them.

Calnago wrote:
...To Shimano... have you changed the 90 degree bend cable routing in your mechanical shifters to help with the cable breaking issue?

_________________
Colnago C60 - PR99
C59 Five Years Later
My Special Colnago EPQ
Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR


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