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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 1:08 am 
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Yes, but if we all start to look at the wall thickness of these frames, it should be rather questionable if people would say... sure, make my frame even thinner.
(Just start off by actually looking inside a light weight frame and you will see how thin they really are.)
Soon we end up with paper wall thickness.
If you ask any builder, what carbon do they use to build a frame. Then again, to achieve an optimal stiffness for a super thin wall frame, it needs to be another resin, another weave (i would guess the thinner the more picky in the vacuum mold!?)
The super stiff composite will be more brittle if you want the stiffness.
You do want the stiffness since you don't wish to ride a frame flapping like butterfly wings!

All this ww:ism is super fun on paper or in theory. But when guys end up with cracks they get furious.
Just look at the Rolo frame sent to a German magazine. It was getting good press, excerpts is that the head tube hole for cables cracked for no good reason.
Why, because it is too thin i would guess.

If you happen to bump your ordinary frame in no excessive way, nothing happens. But if you bump a super thin frame, you might suddenly have something less funny on your hands.

One guy i spoke to about 4 weeks ago rode a super light mtb. He had it for 12 days then the head tube cracked right off when he was biking.
He did not look happy and the company, which is a BIG one did not replace this frame.
Same brand had another bike crack in head tube (rode bike very well known). They told the guy it was faulty cut steerer.
Also a lack of spacers over stem. Thing is, this bike was sold ready buily just as shown in this web sight and catalogue.
Still they declined a warranty!

What am i saying?
Maybe it is a risk that we have to consider if we steer down this super light weight lane.

All of you guys should consider one thing!
Of all bikes we look at or buy, many companies don't build the frames themselves like Ax Lightness.
This is why AX mostly can and will repair frames. They also are not charge too much or sometimes, not at all.
Companies like Spesh, Scott aso have frames built in Asia mostly.
Only thing they will do is replace a frame.
But how many think they do this out of good will, just like that?

Can you even imagine the costs:
* For shipping back and forth from abroad.
* The labour hours of a repair.

Repair can be as many hours or perhaps half labour hour of a complete frame.

Only thing i try to say is, is super low weight worth the risk?
Or is it better to stop somehwere?
Imagine for one second something actually happens inspite of the fact most of us think, nah, it won't happen to me.
It just happens to clumsy dudes.

About a year ago i spoke to an engineer working for a brand most of us know.
He told me, their nightmare would be if frames would not stand the test or abuse of real cycling (not a lab test).
Why?
Because the frames are built in Asia and it is not possible for them to send bikes to have them repaired.
For this reason, the do not build frames that they in all honesty would feel is not really durable enough.

I must point out here, i don't say it's not cool with light weight, shit i love it.
But when do the risks trump over sane and become insane in quest for grams?

A few guys told me i was crazy buying MCFK bar and stem for my gravel. But i see it like this.
Since i use a Lauf Grit, this fork take almost all stress away from stem and handlebar as the fork flex/ compress and rebound.
So the cockpit do not become stressed as it would if i rode a stiff fork.
In this case i find it a bit different.
But sure, a crash would maybe crack the handlebar.

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Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 1:08 am 


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 3:33 am 
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wheelsONfire wrote:
Why did Ax Lightness not set out to lower weight further from the already low 700 grams?
Is it because Ax Lightness can't build a frame as good as Extralites version?


AX Lightness makes the Vial EVO Ultra. It is claimed to weigh around 600 grams. Posts on this forum say its no where near that, but...


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 3:41 am 
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wheelsONfire wrote:
I have never written that Ax is not in the zone i spoke of, have i?
I suggest most of these super thin wall frames are in the risk zone.


So you intentionally and willfully ride a dangerous, deadly, unsafe bike? Why? Does the risk and reward formula justify it for you? Is the ride so wonderful that it is worth risking your life every time you go for a ride?


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 1:55 pm 
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tonytourist wrote:
I have the Aliens 4 and they work perfectly. You must be doing something wrong.


Nope. They just don't work.

Try the standard front wheel shift test.

Check my Youtube channel for a video of the issue, if you need evidence.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:06 pm 
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Location: Loveland, CO
TheDarkInstall wrote:
tonytourist wrote:
I have the Aliens 4 and they work perfectly. You must be doing something wrong.


Nope. They just don't work.

Try the standard front wheel shift test.

Check my Youtube channel for a video of the issue, if you need evidence.


+1. Now I have a heavy set of Campy QRs and I feel confident in throwing the bike around without hesitation. You just have to ask yourself, if Campy can save weight on a set of QRs for their high-end wheels why wouldn't they have done it.

DarkInstall- what are you using now as an alternative to the Aliens 4?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:38 pm 
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Quote:
All this ww:ism is super fun on paper or in theory. But when guys end up with cracks they get furious.
Just look at the Rolo frame sent to a German magazine. It was getting good press, excerpts is that the head tube hole for cables cracked for no good reason.
Why, because it is too thin i would guess.


Thank you Wheels for the post. Just want to reply and provide some background regarding what happened in that test ride. In fact, the issue was that we had made rubber grommets to be mounted on the head tube that would allow the rear brake cable and Di2 cable to enter the head tube cleanly. We designed the grommets and chose a rubber compound we thought would be strong enough to take the force of the brake cable which is under tension (the Di2 cable is obviously not.) Unfortunately for us, the rubber proved not to be strong enough and the inserts would not hold properly. In a couple of cases, they tore while in two others they simply fell out - as was the case in the review. As a direct result, we stopped using the rubber inserts and switched right away to an anodized aluminum insert for the brake cable which we then bond in to the frame, and we use a Shimano grommet for the Di2 cable. So in fact the head tube was just fine structurally and that bike has now been ridden for thousands of kilometers. For more info the, the actual review can be found here: http://www.radsport-rennrad.de/test-tec ... lo-hackney and it even has a photo of the issue (sadly :oops: ).

More broadly, I think that the question that you raise about structural integrity and durability is in fact an excellent one. In our case, we worked with Altair to develop custom engineering tools to develop the lay-up so we can tailor the stiffness to the rider's objectives, and have successfully made a frame weighing 618g - admittedly in our smallest size - which survived a crash that destroyed the fork and damaged some of the components. So weight is not necessarily a clear indicator of structural durability.

Based on our research and experience, much of the final result for any composite part depends greatly on the manufacturing, specifically the control and quality of the process. There are huge differences in composite manufacturing between the textbook result and the actual, as-built. Simple things such as relative humid in the lamination room can affect the process and cause voids and/or delimitation because condensation can form between the fiber layers that then boils off when the tool passes through 100C (most resins cure at 125-130C). The aerospace industry in particular is working very hard and spending huge amounts of money right now to develop engineering tools to model various manufacturing processes in order to identify potential problem areas as well as to generate simulation results that correlate better with actual manufactured results.

Many of these very questions arose at the Cyclitech conference in Newport Beach earlier this month, and several speakers presented papers based on their experience on the subject. I believe that many if not all of the papers will be published very soon, so for those who may be interested in the subject, I would suggest checking the Cyclitech website in the coming days.

(And as an aside, we are fans of Ax Lightness, and of Nils.)


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:35 am 
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^
Thanks Dexter!
I think some misunderstood what i was trying to say.
Perhaps it became more obvious when you cleared things up!
(Hopefully)

Personally i think there will be many actors coming to the scene of super light weight carbon frames and components.
I also think it will raise alot of potential hazards with less knowledgeable people in the business.
They will most likely will appear, along those who can master this art.

_________________
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO D
Paduano Racing Fidia
Open *UP*
https://opencycle.com/showcase/the-xplo ... eelsonfire


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 4:00 am 
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RussellS wrote:
wheelsONfire wrote:
I have never written that Ax is not in the zone i spoke of, have i?
I suggest most of these super thin wall frames are in the risk zone.


So you intentionally and willfully ride a dangerous, deadly, unsafe bike? Why? Does the risk and reward formula justify it for you? Is the ride so wonderful that it is worth risking your life every time you go for a ride?


I wish i could explain better, to make you see why i am writing this.
I must point out, i am never here to be rude.
For me, i find it a bad mistake getting angry and writing in anger.
There is no good reason.

I mean i think when we go under a sweetspot for durability, i think we risk to open a can of worms.
It's a risk level that more than double going from an already low weight to a lower one.
From certain levels of manufacturing, to a new level, i think the risks increase exponentially.

I am not an engineer and certainly have no skills when it comes to mastering carbon.
But if we rewind for a moment to Pinarello F8X at 780 grams (+/-8%) and 600 gram Extralite.
We see a difference of +30% in weight in Pinarello.
There is a reason why some manufacturers will not go below certain weights.
The reason i assume we can imagine is durability and with that, safety.

Why did it take THM ten years to develop a crank lighter than Clavicula Road to Clavicula SE as an example!?

Why you fall back on me and my Ax Lightness i can understand in some ways and some not.
Let me say this, this was my first project into building a light weight bike.
For some reasons i began to look things up.

Over a few years i have been in contact with both dealers, manufacturers and other people in the business and ofcourse, common bikers.
This have made me think about this in a wider angle.

I rather not set out to bad mouth anyone or any brand. This is why i like to not name brands or people.
In this case i used Rolo, which might have been bad of me.
I am glad Dexter came in and nicely sorted things out here.
But still i should not have named Rolo.
It was my bad, i admit this.

But if you are so curious of why, i could tell it to you.
I have my reasons and my own "eye opener".
It was for some experiences i actually began to seek more information.

I have also talked to people who know they could have been severly injured today because they had terrible accidents using light weight frames.
This when frames simply just broke right off from a sudden crack or an unseen one.
It is always when things has happened we start to wonder why, how and what did i do and / or what failed this time and not the last.
Some things simply never trouble us untill it has happened.

Be well, ride safe and be nice.

_________________
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO D
Paduano Racing Fidia
Open *UP*
https://opencycle.com/showcase/the-xplo ... eelsonfire


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:41 am 
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pdlpsher1 wrote:
TheDarkInstall wrote:
tonytourist wrote:
I have the Aliens 4 and they work perfectly. You must be doing something wrong.


Nope. They just don't work.

Try the standard front wheel shift test.

Check my Youtube channel for a video of the issue, if you need evidence.


+1. Now I have a heavy set of Campy QRs and I feel confident in throwing the bike around without hesitation. You just have to ask yourself, if Campy can save weight on a set of QRs for their high-end wheels why wouldn't they have done it.

DarkInstall- what are you using now as an alternative to the Aliens 4?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hey mate,

I use Dura Ace 9000 QRs. Haha. Literally the opposite of Aliens4, and about 3 times as heavy. They work so well though, that I just cried for a few days about the extra weight then got on with shredding.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 6:39 pm 
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@TheDarkInstall I watched your video and tried to get mine to do the same, however, I was not able to do so. I have no problem giving products a negative review (especially when a friend gave these to me in trade for some other skewers) but for me they work perfectly and I have not had any issues with them slipping. I have heavy Campagnolo skewers I would run if I had any problems.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:40 am 
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My streeters don't do that either.. kudos on the hub lube video though .. easier then readings extralite directions


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 6:05 am 
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spdntrxi wrote:
My streeters don't do that either.. kudos on the hub lube video though .. easier then readings extralite directions Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


tonytourist wrote:
@TheDarkInstall I watched your video and tried to get mine to do the same, however, I was not able to do so. I have no problem giving products a negative review (especially when a friend gave these to me in trade for some other skewers) but for me they work perfectly and I have not had any issues with them slipping. I have heavy Campagnolo skewers I would run if I had any problems.


I am genuinely surprised they don't slip with both of you. Definitely not questioning your claims that they don't slip, please understand, but any chance you could make a video of you doing the same thing I did to make them slip, to show them not slipping? I would like to see them actually working properly, because if they are indeed correctly functional, then I may have other issues with the set up. I believe in objectivity and fairness, when it comes to this sort of thing, so if I have got it wrong somewhere I am certainly eager to correct myself and take back my comments that Aliens4 skewers are shite.

If not, then my statement will remains intact! :)

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:01 pm 
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cadence90 wrote:
BikeonlineIT wrote:
English is not my native language, I'm from Italy my name is Davide owner of bikeonline.it. I'm a friend of the Extralite's owner and I'm often at is office and I cooperate with him at this project.
Every frame will be produced by hand and since the final production frame will be on the market I have the "power" to ask what I need: threaded BB, 1-1/8" headtube, etc...

Davide, your English is quite good. However, if you ever do need help in translating anything from Italian to English, I can help. I am from Venezia, but have lived in Los Angeles for many years. So, do not hesitate...assolutamente non esitare...just send a PM or email and I will be more than happy to help.

Nice to see a post from you Cadence. Long time. I've bought from Davide Gentile in the past and everything was fine. Same with Sergio Riva at Extralite. I'm sure he has done his homework before this frame became public knowledge. Although his components are very light, I've never had any issues with durability, so I wouldn't have any qualms about buying one of his frames.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:27 am 
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KB wrote:
cadence90 wrote:
BikeonlineIT wrote:
English is not my native language, I'm from Italy my name is Davide owner of bikeonline.it. I'm a friend of the Extralite's owner and I'm often at is office and I cooperate with him at this project.
Every frame will be produced by hand and since the final production frame will be on the market I have the "power" to ask what I need: threaded BB, 1-1/8" headtube, etc...

Davide, your English is quite good. However, if you ever do need help in translating anything from Italian to English, I can help. I am from Venezia, but have lived in Los Angeles for many years. So, do not hesitate...assolutamente non esitare...just send a PM or email and I will be more than happy to help.

Nice to see a post from you Cadence. Long time. I've bought from Davide Gentile in the past and everything was fine.

Good to come across you again too, KB. Best wishes for a great 2017!

Yes, I think I will order some WR Compositi components from Davide soon.

Cheers.

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Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:27 am 


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:51 pm 
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Bump on this topic. Has it been ridden or built up?
I'm not seeing it on Extralite's site, any more info on it?
Where might it be purchased? What does the pricing look like, etc:.?

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