Ultegra update?

[jeffy]

Mevermind

[spartan]

ceramics .

at shimano engineering comes first not marketing gimmicks.

http://road.cc/content/feature/175644-c ... s-and-cons

btw. friction facts tested derailleur pulleys. shimano's were better

ultegra was similiar friction to record

Yes I am a Campag fan - but I buy Shimano as well.

I just think they went backwards on 9100 and 8000 in terms of Aesthetics and are trying to hit a price point - I get that on 8000 but they should be going for the ultimate on 9100 to create that must buy feeling. (The street price on 9100 is already below where 9000 started when it first came out and there has been a few years of inflation - albeit low).

IMO it doesn't look as finished as 9000/6800.

I will probably get a set of 9100 at some point to try - and if they figure out Hydro that may be what I get first - but to me it won't be complete until it's Upgraded to Ceramic. When you get a set of full Ceramics in a drive train the lack of drag is phenomenal. The drivetrain just spins so freely. When you consider that by the time we are done on most of these bikes we can be well over $10,000 - they better be Mechanical Perfection.

To me that is what is missing from 9100. Add a Chris King Ceramic BB and Ceramic Pulleys to 9100 and you are above the street price of Super Record.

And on the Carbon vs Metal argument - I accept that Metal can be just as good - but I like the look of Carbon which is purely an Aesthetic thing.

Right now Campy is doing a lot better job on Aesthetics. 9100 and 8000 are very Neutral and don't add anything to a bike.

[CallumRD1]

Nope guys heavier than me beside me - and I'm not talking major hills just Rollers and you must have never taken Physics as Mass does not matter.

Brush up on your physics. Mass most definitely matters. In a vacuum, you're correct. Under the influence of gravity all objects accelerate at the same rate, 9.8 m/s^2. The difference here is that quite conveniently we have an atmosphere. Assuming two riders with the same coefficient of aerodynamic drag, the heavier and lighter rider will initially accelerate at similar rates, but as aerodynamic drag begins to limit the top speed of the lighter rider, the heavier rider will continue to accelerate for longer. As you reach what is effectively your terminal velocity, where you stop accelerating, the heavier rider will end up moving faster due to their increased mass and thus momentum and kinetic energy, forestalling the point when the aerodynamic drag stops further acceleration. Looking even closer at this scenario, at every point of the acceleration curve the heavier rider will accelerate faster due to aerodynamic drag effecting him less, although the differences are quite small at low speeds.

A very simple yet quite accurate example of this effect is if you drop a piece of paper, it falls slowly to the floor because the aerodynamic drag relative to the kinetic energy of the paper is quite high. But if you drop a notebook of the exact same size, the drag experienced is the same as the paper but the increased mass allows it to continue to accelerate far longer and thus it reaches the ground much faster.

The physics of rolling down a hill on wheels is little different than this example in principle. Small losses in moving parts like bearings and freehubs will play a small part but by far the largest components in determining acceleration when down a hill under the influence of gravity are aerodynamic drag and mass.

(I have a BS in Chemistry and Physics and I'm working on a PhD in Physical Chemistry)

[maxxevv]

Based on these "spy" shots, 8000 is to 9100 what Record is to Super Record. While 6800 was to 9000, what Chorus was to Super Record.

The 8000 Ultegra brakes are the money part.

When Shimano Starts incorporating Ceramic Bearings and more Carbon Fiber bits into Dura Ace then you can compare it to Super Record and Record. From a Materials standpoint Dura Ace is no better than Chorus at this point at best - both have very high quality Steel Bearings. Both have Carbon Shift Blades, Chorus has Carbon Cranks and Carbon in the RD. Not that Carbon is the be all and end all - but the Materials in Dura Ace don't seem to have as much value.

On Shift Performance and braking Chorus is exactly the same as Record and Super Record. There is no downgrade in performance going from Super Record to Chorus other than theoretically there is less drag in the Record and SR drivetrain's. Chorus is only 120 Grams heavier than Dura Ace and 174 grams lighter than Ultegra 6800. Chorus compared to Dura Ace is a good deal as the street price is usually $300-500 Less.

Campy would say Ultegra is equal to Potenza, and Dura Ace is equal to Chorus.

To make Dura Ace equal to Record you would have to upgrade to a Carbon Crank (Shimano did make one at one point) and change to "Normal Ceramics" in the Pulley's and BB. To upgrade to Super Record level you would have to upgrade to something like Ceramicspeed Bearings.

You seriously need to put DA components side by side with SR ones. Then scrutinise them 360 degrees with a 3X magnifying glass. You'll be astounded at how poor the finishing of the SR ones are round the corners/edges which are not immediately visible when installed, compared to the DA ones. I know I was when I first had a look at the original SR rear derailleur when it was first released and considering how much more it cost compared to the DA one.

Spec sheets are just pure paper play, its the quality at hand which should be the final judgement call on quality.

[saeie1]

Front and rear transmission(FD-9070, RD-9070, FD-6870, RD-6870) firmware version(3.0.0). This time you can configure the synchronized shifting through this E-tube project program. But to use this feature, you need to install a new battery(BT-DN110).

[morrisond]

Here is an Article from Lava - which I got from the FrictionFacts website - Standard DA bearings were substituted with CeramicSpeed Bearings - 8.1 Watt savings - It doesn't make it clear if it's just pulleys they are replacing - but that is probably the smallest savings vs Hubs and BB. http://www.lavamagazine-digital.com/lav ... =NaN#pgNaN

Maybe the SR drivetrain Bearings Suck - but that was a test from 2012 on Previous Gen SR and DA and I suspect the drag may have been due to the built in twist in a SR RD hanger. - Good thing on my "Fast Bike" I've got an Enduro Zero BB with SiSL2's and the Pulleys are the Ceramicspeed 3D printed Ti Pulleys(which I didn't pay anywhere near $1,000USD for).

I don't doubt the Quality of Dura Ace - I'm just trying to make the point that they could have done a better job on the Surface Finishing. Up close 9100 isn't doing anything for me(I was looking at it today in a shop in the flesh). From pictures only It looks like 9100 will be no different than 8000. Previously it has usually been different and looked special and helped justify the upcharge. On every Previous Gen when it came out - it was so good looking - and offered definite performance upgrades that I couldn't stop myself from buying it to try it. This gen just looks like they were trying to figure out how to get slightly higher than 9000 levels of Performance at a lower price point to try and squeeze out Campy and SRAM. That though first got in my mind from something I read a year ago or so before it was announced and I agree with that. Ultegra 8000 is looking like the one to buy this time (vs Dura Ace).

Luckily they aren't charging more for 9100 than 9000 - that would have been hard to swallow.

[Imaking20]

I think it's like the smartphone race; how much better does it need to be?! Or can it be, really. I don't expect to see any evolutions in smartphones nor mechanical shifting any time soon - and I'm fine with that. The leading options are very, very good.

[mattr]

Here is an Article from Lava - which I got from the FrictionFacts website - Standard DA bearings were substituted with CeramicSpeed Bearings - 8.1 Watt savings - It doesn't make it clear if it's just pulleys they are replacing - but that is probably the smallest savings vs Hubs and BB.

I'd stop buying lava then. The table above (taken from friction facts) shows the drag of the *worst* jockey wheels to only be ~1.4 watts. So a saving of 8.1 gets you well into the realms of not being able to read basic reports........ or understand physics.

Unless of course ceramic speeds purchase of friction facts means that they have more of a say than they really should.
Seeing that news on their home page is slightly depressing.

Ceramic bearings, in the real world, are as near to a scam as you can get, without actually being a scam. There are far more savings to be made by better choice of lubes, sealing and roundness of steel bearings and housings.

But ceramic can be sold at a massive mark up, so they are "best".

[siovene]

I suspect the drag may have been due to the built in twist in a SR RD hanger.

Sorry about the OT, but I think I have this problem on my SR and can't find any information on the internet. Do you know if it's solvable?

[mattr]

This post (if my link works) has some detail.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=136475&p=1189142&hilit=twist#p1189125

And it's the cage that is twisted, a campag mech doesn't have a hanger, it's part of the frame......

[morrisond]

Here is an Article from Lava - which I got from the FrictionFacts website - Standard DA bearings were substituted with CeramicSpeed Bearings - 8.1 Watt savings - It doesn't make it clear if it's just pulleys they are replacing - but that is probably the smallest savings vs Hubs and BB.

I'd stop buying lava then. The table above (taken from friction facts) shows the drag of the *worst* jockey wheels to only be ~1.4 watts. So a saving of 8.1 gets you well into the realms of not being able to read basic reports........ or understand physics.

Unless of course ceramic speeds purchase of friction facts means that they have more of a say than they really should.
Seeing that news on their home page is slightly depressing.

Ceramic bearings, in the real world, are as near to a scam as you can get, without actually being a scam. There are far more savings to be made by better choice of lubes, sealing and roundness of steel bearings and housings.

But ceramic can be sold at a massive mark up, so they are "best".

If you had read the article you would have read that it never said just the pulley bearings - which I mentioned above and sorry I didn't make it clear that I suspect it's 8.1 watts for all bearings, which makes sense to me - for sure there is not that much load on the BB and Pulleys, much more on the wheels. 8.1 watts makes sense to me as being mainly from the wheel hubs. Of the 8.1 watts it may only be 1-2 watts from the BB and Pulleys - but that is 1-2 watts(and I believe they are lighter(Ceramic Balls), which is a marginal gain - but when has Weightweenies not been about Marginal gains?

[mattr]

LOL, i'm *not* subscribing to a triathlon magazine, especially not one that doesn't appear to make it abundantly clear that the savings are for the entire driveline, not just the jockey wheels.

And there is marginal gains, and throwing money at stuff. A significant difference.

[morrisond]

You don't have to subscribe - just click on "Open Article" in the top left hand of the article. A lot of the point they make is about the quality and longevity of the balls. Top groups should have top Quality parts for the price they are charging.

Yes it's all about Marginal gains - How much would you spend to knock 50 grams (1% of the weight of a light bike) off a set of Pedals or a set of brakes? If the answer is zero or close to Zero - what are you doing on this site?

[Dr.Dos]

This thread would be marginally better without off-topic trolling. About 100kg better.

[morrisond]

It all started when someone called 8000= Record.

No one seems to be debating or providing an alternative to my view that Shimano has dropped the ball somewhat on Dura Ace vs Ultegra given how good new Ultegra appears to be. How is that trolling? Are we not allowed to express personal viewpoints anymore?

Ultegra 8000 looks like a great group and probably a great value compared to Dura Ace 9100, and I will probably get new Ultegra for one of my bikes.

Change the Pulleys to Dura Ace and use a Dura Ace BB and you could have a great inexpensive group.

Let's hope they price new Ultegra cheaper than 6800 like they did with 9100 vs 9000 as well.

It will make a great cheaper option. 9100 just doesn't seem to be different enough any more.

I wish Shimano had made 9100 more special - finish it differently or put ceramics in it - even if you don't agree they are a worthy upgrade.