Zipp 303 vs Zipp 404 chainstay rub
Moderator: robbosmans
I'm a happy owner of a pair of zipp 303 nsw. And while my 2017 supersix himod does have clearance for wider tires, I noticed some rub between the rim and chainstay (right side only) when I'm out of the saddle on very steep grades (10%+) and tilting the bike sideways.
Zipp recommends the 404 in these cases, but it's only like 0.7mm narrower what makes me wonder if it makes any difference.
Does anybody have experience with these wheels regarding flexing? I'm only 130lbs and it's very surprising to be honest. Also it feels like a design issue on cannondale's part. Seriously.
Also, how big of a deal is this? The funny thing is that I have no brakepad rub, just the rim rubbing the chainstay. But I guess it can be a big issue later if the rim works itself into the chainstay.
Zipp recommends the 404 in these cases, but it's only like 0.7mm narrower what makes me wonder if it makes any difference.
Does anybody have experience with these wheels regarding flexing? I'm only 130lbs and it's very surprising to be honest. Also it feels like a design issue on cannondale's part. Seriously.
Also, how big of a deal is this? The funny thing is that I have no brakepad rub, just the rim rubbing the chainstay. But I guess it can be a big issue later if the rim works itself into the chainstay.
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My V3 808 used to do the same thing in my SL4 tho I get up to 95kg at times. I think its more the wide wheels than the frame itself. Frame manufacturers struggle to keep up with the wheel makers.
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nemeseri wrote:Zipp recommends the 404 in these cases, but it's only like 0.7mm narrower what makes me wonder if it makes any difference.
The difference in max width is small but the important bit is that with the 404 the widest part is further towards the center of the wheel (hub), so the chainstays are wider at that point. Don't quote me exactly but it's around 12mm further up so you can probably gain 2mm each side depending on the bike and how much the stays flair.
What's the clearance between rim and bike when the bike is stationary? If the distance is 2mm or more than I say the wheel is to blame.
Not all bikes fail to keep up to the wheel makers. My Fuji has gigantic clearances for wide wheels everywhere.
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Not all bikes fail to keep up to the wheel makers. My Fuji has gigantic clearances for wide wheels everywhere.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Well, they redesigned the frame recently (2016) to fit 28mm tires, but the the chainstays shape up like like a lightbulb now. To be fair, there is some room on both sides (3-4mm) and I have to swap out the wheels to make 100% sure that's the wheel that flexing and rubbing. On the other hand I can easily push the rim to contact the chainstays by hand so I'm almost sure that's the issue.
Thanks. This is really helpful. Actually this might make things worse, because the space between the chainstays gets narrower closer to the hub a bit.
Dez33 wrote:The difference in max width is small but the important bit is that with the 404 the widest part is further towards the center of the wheel (hub), so the chainstays are wider at that point. Don't quote me exactly but it's around 12mm further up so you can probably gain 2mm each side depending on the bike and how much the stays flair.
Thanks. This is really helpful. Actually this might make things worse, because the space between the chainstays gets narrower closer to the hub a bit.
I'm not sure if the 1mm is really to blame here. I have the hi mod black with Enve 4.5's laced to CK hubs. I've ran up to 28mm tubs and have plenty of clearance when looking at it and have seen no signs of rubbing. Also ran this set up on my synapse without issue. When i swapped over to some alloy training wheels for winter, i did notice rubbing on the chainsaty even though the rim is narrower. It's more than likely the zipp hubs and lacing which i have heard isn't the stiffest set up giving you issues, that's what i found out anyway with my alloy wheels
I just checked and I see around 2.5 / 3mm between the widest part of the rim and the chainstays. I think under load it might be ok for the wheel to flex that much. Maybe I'm wrong, but I can easily flex my other wheels by hand to touch the brake pads. Anyway, I will bring the wheel to an LBS to look at them.
The zipp 303 28.5mm wide at the widest point and that causes the issue. I have plenty of room at the brake track and tires.
willmac wrote:I'm not sure if the 1mm is really to blame here. I have the hi mod black with Enve 4.5's laced to CK hubs. I've ran up to 28mm tubs and have plenty of clearance when looking at it and have seen no signs of rubbing. Also ran this set up on my synapse without issue. When i swapped over to some alloy training wheels for winter, i did notice rubbing on the chainsaty even though the rim is narrower. It's more than likely the zipp hubs and lacing which i have heard isn't the stiffest set up giving you issues, that's what i found out anyway with my alloy wheels
The zipp 303 28.5mm wide at the widest point and that causes the issue. I have plenty of room at the brake track and tires.
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I've got firecrest 303/404 combo (f/r) on my 2015 SuperSix Black Inc and I get some minor rubbing on the brake pads but flex is nowhere near the chainstay. I'm 75kg max though and maybe the 404 rear does help with this.
Just had a look on my frame, i have exactly 3/8 of an inch on both sides with the enve rims. That's 4.7mm either side, if your zipps are 28.5mm that only leaves around 2mm either side for flex at the chainstays, this should be enough there though. Have you have the spoke tension and bearings pre-load checked? If they are new wheels they may need a bit of an adjustment after a couple of hundred Km's
sussexhills wrote:I've got firecrest 303/404 combo (f/r) on my 2015 SuperSix Black Inc and I get some minor rubbing on the brake pads but flex is nowhere near the chainstay. I'm 75kg max though and maybe the 404 rear does help with this.
I wonder if cannondale changed the shape of the chainstays in 2016. It's good to know that you have no issue with the 404 in the back. Definitely an alternative for me.
willmac wrote:Just had a look on my frame, i have exactly 3/8 of an inch on both sides with the enve rims. That's 4.7mm either side, if your zipps are 28.5mm that only leaves around 2mm either side for flex at the chainstays, this should be enough there though. Have you have the spoke tension and bearings pre-load checked? If they are new wheels they may need a bit of an adjustment after a couple of hundred Km's
I contacted Cannondale and they recommend 5mm on each sides (that makes only 25mm wide rims compatible officially which is a shame IMO). I also dropped off the bike at my LBS and have them take a look. While the rubbing is very loud under load, maybe I'm just stupid and confuse the sound with simple brake track rubbing. Hopefully they will take a look at spoke tension and hub pre-load.
Just to close this thread on a positive note: my LBS and I confirmed that it was brake pad rubbing and not chainstay or seat stay, so the zipp 303 nsw fits the 2017 cannondale supersix himod.
ALTOUGHT, I also noticed the same very loud vibration during hard braking and it sent me researching. I found that the new zipp nsw is very sensitive to the brake pad position and the more I toed in the pads, the harder the vibration got. So instead of toeing in, I mounted my brake pads flat and suddenly this solved the vibration problem completely. Also noticed that the brake rub due to flex (the issue I started the thread about) got more quiet and something I'd call normal. Yay!
ALTOUGHT, I also noticed the same very loud vibration during hard braking and it sent me researching. I found that the new zipp nsw is very sensitive to the brake pad position and the more I toed in the pads, the harder the vibration got. So instead of toeing in, I mounted my brake pads flat and suddenly this solved the vibration problem completely. Also noticed that the brake rub due to flex (the issue I started the thread about) got more quiet and something I'd call normal. Yay!
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