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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:57 am 
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Location: Vienna Austria
mpulsiv wrote:
unless it's Steve Hog method http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/faq


Heh, never thought we'd agree on something :) He just makes a lot of sense.


Last edited by Marin on Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:00 am 
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boysa wrote:
Marin wrote:
Colnago and Cervelo. They are not essentially the same. I could get my contact points on both frames to be identical, but where I'm balanced on the frame is going to be very different..


If by "balanced on the bike" you mean your longitudinal position over the cranks, the only thing on a frame that affects this is seat angle

You can tweak that position with seatpost and saddle setback, and then you choose the right stem and bars to get your reach, on both brands the same.

If you mean balanced side-to-side: Correct, I also never thought BBRight was a good idea :D :D


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Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:00 am 


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:15 am 
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No, when I say balanced, I refer to where you are positioned in the scope of the overall wheelbase. If one frame has a chainstay length of 405mm, and another is 415mm, you can set your saddle on both frames to be 4cm behind the bottom bracket but you are in a different location in relation to the center of the rear wheel. Apply this same rationale to the front triangle.

What this is doing is putting more/less weight over different parts of the bike. You can set any frame of relatively similar size to have matching contact points for you (the rider), but it doesn't mean your weight, and therefore your "balance," is going to be the same. If you are weighted more heavily on the front of the frame, for example, you should notice quicker steering and cornering, but it may come at the cost of having a "loose" rear that feels as if it wants to jump and skip out on you.

Contact points are certainly what most people refer to when they speak of geometry. Of this I am not making a case. I am merely saying as important as contact points are, and they are the first issue to contend with when looking for a new frame, they don't represent the entire picture. Once they are established, the next step is to see if the bike is balanced. Does it feel planted when cornering? Does the rear wheel act skittish at times? Does the front wheel want to pull out of high-speed turns? Does the front wheel lift during sprinting?

I say this from experience. I have had several frames set up with the exact same contact points, yet the bikes are completely different on the road. Sure, they may feel very similar when traveling in a straight line in the flats... but how do they feel when the ground rises and falls, turns left and right. And especially how do they feel when you turn the volume up to 11.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:06 am 
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Good post.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:17 pm 
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I agree with everything @boysa has been saying, even the part about a lot of people not having a clue about what they're talking about when they say the geometry suits them. There is fit geometry and there is bike geometry. They are not the same but they do coexist and getting them to coexist in perfect harmony is the ultimate goal. In my experience this usually involves a lot of trial and error out actually on the bike in all kinds of situations before it starts getting dialed. Absolutely go to your fit guy for a starting point in the process if you're not sure where to begin, but never discount your own judgement as you are the one actually riding the thing. We all don't have the benefit of exchanging one frame for another every week or so making the process potentially years in the making. But it's a fun process.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:02 pm 
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Thanks guys. Calnago, you are 100% correct. The learning process is continuous. I often find myself muttering, "If I only knew this last year, before I bought 'x,y, or z.'" Ha!

In my experience, I've walked away from every fitting I've had and on the first actual ride I've immediately made tweaks here and there. At this stage, I know what I want. Or, at least I think I do. Maybe a better phrase is I know what feels right. It's amazing how small changes can make big differences in how the bicycle handles or responds. I think this is especially true for those of us on the smaller side of the human sizing scale.

Only once we put the bike through it's paces do we truly know if things are correct. The best example I can give is I have a frame that I've done a ton of racing on. It is a tremendous frame. Sublime, really. In a crit it is spot-on for 99.9% of the race. The final two laps, however, when the pace hits the ceiling and I need her to hold a tight line through the corners at the increased speed, she wants to pull a bit too straight and wide. I switched frames, and the newer bike holds the exact line I want through the corners, no matter how fast. The geometry is almost identical.

I'm hoping what I've learned from these, and other frames, will allow my new build to be dialed in. Sorry if we've gotten way off topic here...

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:00 am 
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I can't say I've noticed any of what you're talking about, even in the pointy end of crits. Maybe I've just been lucky? At least for me stack and reach determines fit, I buy the bike that lets me get my desired stack/reach with minimal spacers and a ~110mm stem.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:58 am 
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For me it's similar.

I'm finding the 3 things that affect/let me tune handling the most are 1) front tire width & type, 2) stem length and bar reach and 3) bar width.

420 bars and 110 stem feels quite a bit different than 400 / 120. I can ride both on the same bike however.

When the 3 parameters are similar, I don't think I could tell my 3 main bikes (1 carbon, 1 steel, 1 titanium) apart "blindly".



And, switching from a 23mm Veloflex Master to a 25/28mm Corsa G+ will totally transform your bike's feel.

Or switching from a 25mm Conti to any 25mm cotton tire.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:49 am 
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Marin, I agree with you that nothing will transform the feel of a frame more than tires. I'd go so far as to say nothing will change the feel of a frame more than tire pressure. Of course, again, I think this is the case when you are just cruising along. Heck, not even simply cruising, but probably the majority of most folks' riding.

Believe me, I'm no "Princess and the Pea." But I ride A LOT. And the more I've ridden, both in sense of weekly/yearly mileage and overall lifetime cumulative mileage, the more I can notice subtle differences. Could I tell the difference between my aluminum frame and my carbon one if you blindfolded me? I think I certainly could, but in order to get it 100% correct I'd have to push things. If you played with tire pressure and sent me off around the parking lot, I'd probably have no idea. Especially if you softened the tires for the aluminum frame and/or pumped up the ones for the carbon frame. But if I were to start cornering hard, I'd know for sure. Not because of frame material, but because of geometry.

Hey, we are all different, right? One man's castle is another man's prison. Ha... I thought of that one today... quite often.

I wonder if you would notice differences if you were able to swap out forks. Try different rake angles and then really hit some corners and high-speed descents. Just thinking out loud.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:30 am 
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Well I certainly notice that my track bike is twitchier than my roadie (steeper, 35mm rake etc.) but it's not something I 'notice' when I'm pushing hard. I just notice it when I first switch bikes, and then I just 'get used to it'. Never really felt that I couldn't push hard or nail a corner because of my bike's handling. But then again I might be pretty lucky in that I 'like' the way my road/track bikes handle.

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I write the weightweenies blog, hope you like it :)

My SwiftCarbon Ultravox

My Velocite Selene

Disclosure: I'm sponsored by Velocite, but I do give my honest opinion about them (I'm endorsed to race their bikes, not say nice things about them)


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:38 am 
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Or, could simply be I'm such a poor bike handler I need the stars to align in order to get it right! ha!

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:39 am 
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haha or perhaps I'm such a terrible bike handler that I'm the limiting factor and not the bike :lol: . But if you can notice these things then I suppose you'll know what you like, and that'll make choosing a bike much easier. If you're in my boat and just looking at stack+reach+seat tube angle there are too many bikes to choose from...

Since I think we've drifted a little off topic, I'll just mention that Hillbrick make some great alloy frames, provided they fit you etc. as above. Perhaps more towards the budget end of the spectrum, but if I didn't have my Selene I'd probably have a Hillbrick (Sabre). If they're Pista is anything to go by, it'll be solid, heavy and can survive a beating (oh wait this is weightweenies :oops: ).

_________________
I write the weightweenies blog, hope you like it :)

My SwiftCarbon Ultravox

My Velocite Selene

Disclosure: I'm sponsored by Velocite, but I do give my honest opinion about them (I'm endorsed to race their bikes, not say nice things about them)


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:46 pm 
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Location: Vienna Austria
It could also be that I've ridden so many different types of bikes (BMX race, BMX Freestyle, Folding, Rigid MTBs, Hardtail MTB, Full Sus MTBs, CXs, Road bikes) that I don't notice the subtler differences anymore :)


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