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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 12:52 pm 
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Thinking about a 'comfortable' bike and a harsher traditional bike. What's your experience of the two. I'm being a bit vague but I'm testing something at the moment (two frames, same finishing kit, PSI etc).

Do you notice a big difference in speed, comfort, power output change because of position change etc? Do you have a distance limit on your harsher ride that you just can't handle, or is it road surface dependent? Did you get used to your harsher bike more, and start using your endurance ride less?

Anything at all, just wanting to canvas some ideas!


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Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 12:52 pm 


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 1:32 pm 
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yes.
two complete road bikes (used to be three) basically had contact points carried over and made all the comfort changes in tyres, tubes and pressures.

Used each bike depending on what i was doing.

Harsh rigid race bike, comfortable steel training bike and mudguarded wet weather/winter bike.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 1:46 pm 
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Lots of people that choose an endurance model is that they require the geo for an optimal fit. eg people with longer legs/short torso. Backproblems, endurances trips and just for more comfort in general.
Also they don't like the nervous direct behavior of a performance bike.
Endurance models have room for wider tires, which help to increase comfort.

When you do some Training for yourself and/or do Leisure rides on your own or with friends, most people are better of with an endurance model anyway.
Lots of people choose racy performance bikes for the wrong reason. Because the pro's use them and for the bling bling, weight etc.
They forget to choose the bike that fits their purpose and riding style the best.

When you do real races, it will be another story. But also then: the right fit needs to be on top of your list of requirements.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 2:39 pm 
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Location: Vienna Austria
I think the main point of an "endurance" bike is the more relaxed fit.

Ride comfort is mostly determined by tires, tubes and pressure and to a lesser extent by the seat & post, bar and bartape.

Frame and fork contribution comes last.

The real question is - would you like 2 bikes with vastly different fit?

For me, I'd want an at least slightly aerodynamic position *especially* on longer trips to save effort and time, and I keep the fit between my bikes very similar, with maybe 1-2cm differences in drop which is easy to achieve with stem & spacer choice.

If you need and endurance bike because you can't ride an agressive position, you won't be able to use a bike with a lot of drop anyway. And the comfort differences between the frames will be minimal, no matter what the manufacturers or their confirmation biased customers will tell you.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 2:40 pm 
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mattr wrote:
yes.
two complete road bikes (used to be three) basically had contact points carried over and made all the comfort changes in tyres, tubes and pressures.

Used each bike depending on what i was doing.

Harsh rigid race bike, comfortable steel training bike and mudguarded wet weather/winter bike.


Do you notice much difference in average speed between your bikes?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 3:30 pm 
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Posts: 47
Hi !

I have a 2017 Allez Sprint (harsher bike, imho) plus an good ol' Roubaix (sofa comfort enduracer, imho too). And also a CX that is more a tourer than racer for me so in between the two Specialized position-wise.

I had:
- many rides (10K to 100K) with the Roubaix.
(- a fewer 30K to 100K on the CX. But almost nothing serious on smooth tarmac)
- 10K every day to work and +40K the weekend with the Allez since this august.

I took back the Roubaix for the first time since the Allez landing. I was immediately feeling like I was riding a Hollander/City Bike because of the position so much straightened position. But my back doesn't hurt at all after +50K. In fact it has never with the Roubaix.

Another discrepancy is that I more prone to put the watts with the Allez since I realize that smaller loss of energy transfert (this thing is ridiculously rigid ... but a little brutal) and position helps to get it faster and quicker than the Roubaix. Many times, I'm not reluctant for chases and small sprints on my way to work but it hurts back and legs at the end of the week.

With the Roubaix I'm "cruising" at the less high pace. Less braking, less adrenaline.

Note that both bikes were fit for me at the same LBS:
- I kept the Roubaix stem and spacers unchanged from factory settings, just adjusting the seat and post. At that period, I was coming from 15 years of XC and never rode seriously road bikes so I was a little afraid of the seat-to-bar drop.
- The Allez drop is another story out of the factory. I also wanted to keep a difference and feel it (except in the back !) as the bikes are intended for different needs. I am slacked to the max, keeping just a tiny spacer to be able to install the Stix light headset-mount ... and be able to walk proudly chest up front, not like a grand-pa' after each ride.
- In a not-so-distant future, shocked by the difference of ride I felt after one month and a half on the Allez, I'll be testing the removal of the Roubaix spacers to see if the old faithful can be more nervous this way. Having in mind that the Roubaix "relaxed" geometry and compliance won't allow me to mimic the Allez position and generosity identically.

I swapped the wheels (Ksyrium Elite S with 25mm Specialized All-Road vs stock Axis 2.0 Elite with Specialized Turbo Pro 24mm) and the global feeling of both bikes was similar. The brake course was a little change by the difference of width but it's off topic.

What I like with the Roubaix is your ride smoothness is not dictated by the roads. You want to cruise relaxed, you go for it, you won't be able to max the power but you can try. With the Allez, even when cruising, you still have a reminder on where you're rolling in the saddle and bars. But you would not want to cruise that much but draw lines and jump in curves with it.

Hope this was helpful.

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Last edited by stk57 on Mon Oct 10, 2016 9:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 4:01 pm 
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Yes that's great thanks!

Similar to myself. I started with the endurance bike, and slammed it as far as it it'll go (Infinito CV) and have ridden rides up to 125miles on it fine. Actually had a habit of doing 100 mile rides at the weekend for kicks, but stopped that recently. Just built a winter bike now, but it's an R3 chinese copy and quite traditional. Slammed it and put a -17 on it. Super aggressive. Shocked actually how aggressive the position is. How much control you have on the bike when you're so low. Just really confidence inspiring. So much fun. Yes fun. Something oft ignored by sticklers :P

Anyway love it, so much fun. Wondering how far I can take it now and if I should consider retiring the endurance bike if I can get my average speed as high on the trad bike on long distances and adapt to the position. Wondering if I'll feel like hell on it. It'll be weeks and months until I have these answers myself, so that's why I was sniffing around you guys to see if I'd get any experiences.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 4:27 pm 
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Shrike wrote:
Do you notice much difference in average speed between your bikes?

I notice a sensible raise in average number of drifts in winter. :smartass:

Seriously, I take the same trip to work every day for 4 years. Tested it with many of my bikes. The profile is flat and tarmac quality is variable urban suburbs i.e. not as rough as open roads in back country. I have crossing lights and bike lanes stops to test my sprint aptitude as well as long rolling straight lines at the end, when warmed up.

The Allez Sprint is at home and even if I have no computer anymore (I'm over 40, it's my bike-to-work routine, I just have to keep up with the young roadies along the trip) I felt it very quickly. It's intended for that terrain.

Roubaix smoothness will takes over after much more km, less as the ground becomes rougher. Take it on rough terrain and add 90km and the Roubaix will be in front, without any doubt. I climbed and descent with a SuperSix Evo with Red blings on roads I know by heart : it was slightly easier to climb, sensibly faster on straight but rougher for the butt and back. The Roubaix was so much easy with descent curves with gravel and bumps at speed. At low speed I could recover from hammering session quickly with the Roubaix, with a better (upward) position and less fatigue by km.

I can keep the speed more easily on the Allez, even if it add some back pain, my legs will have to give less energy to maintain speed and get to a target speed. The upper body will take more pain though. On the otherside, freshly made tarmac mats will be less rewarding with a Roubaix.

Your average speed match the mood/ride/weather of the moment that eventually meets its horse. If your stable gives you more than no choice !

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Last edited by stk57 on Mon Oct 10, 2016 9:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 5:18 pm 
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I have a few road bikes of various levels of "stiffness" and "racy setup", but I have the same position on all of them. I think it's best to have a position on the bike that's both powerful and comfortable enough to ride all day long. If you are on a race bike and can't stay on that bike for prolonged lengths you should reconsider your fit.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 5:28 pm 
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Location: NorthEU
You could take this question and add gravel bikes. Then you have a much more increased acceptance for wider tires.
You could also add a Lauf Grit fork to a gravel bike.

The gravel bike becomes a bit slower if you use very wide tires. But that is only until you hit the gravel roads, because you actually more easily bomb those with wider tires.
You can also use semi aero wheelsets, like No tubes Avion which can be very fast with 28-32mm tires.

Swapping Open Cycle UP for Ax Lightness Vial EVO D, EVO is much more nimble and accelerate better. UP is much less vibrations and runs more steady over crappy roads and/ or gravel, trails and even some mtb tracks (the latter i expect to become much better with Lauf Grit).

If i would start off today and have two bikes in sight, i would look for a niche road bike that is fast and then buy a gravel bike.
The gravel bike could be used for everything and crappy weather (winter studded tires and rainy days), the road bike for all speed assault.
So that would render the endurance bike useless, because it is a bike that is in between these two.
For the gravel, disc brakes is given!

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Ax Lightness Vial EVO D
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 6:06 pm 
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Shrike wrote:
Do you notice much difference in average speed between your bikes?
Nope, they are all used for different jobs, so the conditions i ride them in and what i'm trying to do make more difference.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 6:35 pm 
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Posts: 368
I just went through this so I'll chime in.

When I started cycling 3.5 years ago I got into TT (dedicated TT bike) - so - to try and take that into my road cycling a bit I bought a Cervelo S5. This was my go to bike.

In 2.5 years I put ~38,000km on it. Rides up to and just over 400km on it. These are single day rides. The positioning on it was aggressive. Then in June 2016 I did a 400+km ride - and by 350km;s I couldn't turn my neck any more. No shoulder checking. Even arm signalling was tough. I decided that since I'm more of an endurance rider now I need to build an endurance road bike.

I built a bike with performance geometry: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=140326&p=1246305#p1246304

I used the same wheels that I used on my Cervelo - so I would have something familiar for when comparing the rides.

Night and Day.

I just sold my Cervelo 2 weeks ago. No regrets. The endurance model is more comfortable, lighter, and easier to ride. Again I started riding 3.5 years ago - and in fact just yesterday I passed 60,000km since my very first road bike ride. I've put almost 4,000km on this endurance bike in under 2 months so I can judge pretty well how this bike feels to the Aero S5. While there are noticeable slower capabilities on the endurance bike on steep long descents, and group riding with alternating pace lines (when the person in front peels off and the wind hits you - it's more pronounced now on this new bike) - overall I couldn't be happier with my decision to make a endurance only bike. The engine (me) is still running full power and I can make up for it ;)

If you want to have both kinds - even better. I've got new endurance wheels and 25mm tires arriving today so I'm ready to take it to the next level of comfort...

Good luck!

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viewtopic.php?f=10&t=140326&p=1246305#p1246304


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 7:22 pm 
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Thanks McGilli, really helpful actually that. One question though - do you ever KOM chase and wish you had the S5 for it?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 9:37 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:57 pm
Posts: 39
Location: Dallas, TX
ergott wrote:
If you are on a race bike and can't stay on that bike for prolonged lengths you should reconsider your fit.


I agree with this, I think even on a race bike you should be fairly comfortable; if not, a more relaxed geometry would be more appropriate for the rider.

The only thing that makes my bike a little uncomfortable for me, as far as I can tell, is the stiffness of the back end. The aero seat post and beefy seat stays probably do nothing for comfort, at least on crappy roads. While my position is fine I really feel the bumps and road vibrations. So for my next bike I'll be looking at both race bikes that have some more comfort built into the frame, as well as endurance bikes with an aggressive geometry.


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Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 9:37 pm 


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2016 12:14 am 
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Posts: 1405
It seems like an "endurance" bike covers two bases - less twitchy race geometry and a higher head tube because, let's face it, most customers don't want much drop. They want to sit upright. It's why we see endurance bikes that still have a big stack of spacers and an upward sloping stem. You can get a comfortable race frame.

I've had a bunch of "race" bikes but with a wide range of comfort. All had the same basic wheels and 23mm Conti GP4000 tires. I had to sell my Calfee Dragonfly because it was too stiff in the rear. On a bad road, I got beat up. 25mm tires didn't make much of a difference at all. My Time VXS goes the other way. It has vectran in the layup and was designed for the Paris-Roubaix. It is cushy. It soaks up everything and doesn't transmit it to the rider. On the other hand it feels dead in a way. My Colnago C59 is somewhere in the middle and seems to have achieved that magical quality of feeling stuff yet comfortable all at the same time.

Just because the Pros "slam the stem" doesn't mean you have to. I agree with Ergott, you should be comfortable on your bike and be able to use the drops. For fun, I played around with how low I could go. I don't run a lot of drop. If I go too low I end up with a pinch in the back of my neck which makes long rides unbearable.

If I got an endurance bike, I'd run basically the same comfortable setup. Maybe with an endurance bike I'd have the stem slammed where on my Colnago I have a few small spacers.

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