Looking At Enve 3.4's - Hub Question

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
McGilli
Posts: 368
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:57 pm

by McGilli

Hey all!

I have a set of Zipp 303 FC Clincher that I've put about... 30,000km on in the last 2.5 years. I don't always use them (lots of other wheels) but they are my go to wheels, especially for durability. I've never had any issues with them.

But as many of us know - we get bored. Need something new. Something different. So.

I'm looking at Enve SES 3.4's. I'm looking everywhere for them new and used - and there are so many different hub options that people have, or I can get.

So, I see them with the DT Swiss, CK, Tune, White, Alchemy, Extralite...

I'm looking at these wheels to be my every day wheels (most often / dry weather only) . That means that they will be used about ~15,000km and climb ~200,000m every year.

My question is - Being on Weight Weenies - are Tune or Alchemy or Extralite hubs able to handle that kind of riding? Are heavier hubs more durable? Bigger brands easier to service?

Thanks in advance.
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Nefarious86
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by Nefarious86

240 or CK if a few grams aren't an issue Alchemy if you want lighter.
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by Weenie


spdntrxi
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by spdntrxi

I'm a big extralite fan.. I use the daily on my Enve 4.5's..(dry only) sure other hubs are or might be more durable but I've been using extralites for nearly 3 years now and never had issue. I do lube them every 6 months. I've owned CK45's, DT240s, Alchemy and Tunes... Extralite is my fav. My tubulars have DT240s which are ok too.

superdx
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by superdx

With all the recent updates to the SES line, wonder if they will be revamping the 3.4s soon. Lighter etc.

pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1


CEVelo
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by CEVelo

CK 45 ceramic if you want a stiff wheel build (wider flange than eg DT240) and "no worries high performance"...almost forever.

Multebear
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by Multebear

Whites or Shimano DA if you want durability, and if you don't want chewed up freehub bodies. I have DT 240, CK R45 (ceramic), WI T11, DA and Alchemy hubs on various wheelsets. And Whites and DA are what I will buy in the future. They are the heaviest of the high end hubs, but there's a reason for that. CK's are probably the best performing ones, but the freehub body gets chewed up and is quite expensive. DT's don't build into stiff wheels because of poor bracing angle, and Alchemys aren't properly sealed and thus not very durable.
Last edited by Multebear on Tue Sep 27, 2016 12:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

burglarboycie
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by burglarboycie

I don't think there's a hub out there that would tempt me away from my CK R45s. Absolutely love them.

Broady
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by Broady

I've got CK R45s on 3.4s, superb wheelset.

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madcow
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by madcow

McGilli wrote:My question is - Being on Weight Weenies - are Tune or Alchemy or Extralite hubs able to handle that kind of riding? Are heavier hubs more durable? Bigger brands easier to service?


Typically yes, heavier is more durable, though that's not a universal rule. Bigger brands aren't necessarily easier to service, but they may be easier to source parts when needed.

CEVelo wrote:CK 45 ceramic if you want a stiff wheel build (wider flange than eg DT240) and "no worries high performance"...almost forever.

Multebear wrote: DT's don't build into stiff wheels because of poor bracing angle.


That's not totally correct. A king is 17mm right offset and 51mm flange diameter. Given an erd of 460 in a 2x rear that produces a 4.5 degree drive side bracing angle. DT is also a 17mm offset with a 45mm flange, which in the same rim also gives a 4.5 degree bracing angle. The King does push the non-drive bracing angle out, but in my opinion this isn't nearly as crucial as drive side and of course comes at the cost of tension ratio. In that same example King has a 9.1 nds bracing angle whereas DT is 8.6. However the DT has a 52% tension ratio whereas the King drops it to 46%.

Several years ago we could have certainly looked at drive side bracing angles as being quite important, however when Shimano/Sram cassettes went 11 speed all that changed. Right side offset has become pretty similar across most hubs. (Shimano at the shallower 16mm and the T11 at a deeper almost 18mm are the two that come to mind as the bookends)

We build with all of the hubs you've mentioned and I'd be the first to recommend not trying to pick wheel components individually. With wheels it's about looking at your needs and then considering all the parts as a whole. Each component contributes to the entire, and changing one can be offset by changing a different one. I hope that's not as confusing as it may seem. For example if you had a wheel with your desired stiffness but wanted to have fewer spokes you could move to fewer spokes but increase their gauge to offset their number. Or change bracing angle among other things, but then you have to consider how those changes offset other attributes of the wheel. It's pretty important to look at wheels as a complete system.

When it comes to hubs there are 3 that I generally consider the go to hubs for high milage daily riders. DT240, King R45 and White T11. It's hard to go wrong with any of them. Dt is slightly lighter than King and King is a little lighter than White. Though White has a more durable freehub body. In terms of service none of them are hard, but every shop is familiar with DT and most have parts on hand. King uses more proprietary parts that most shops don't stock. White lands in the middle.

There are some great wheelbuilders out there, the best advice I can offer is to work with someone who understands wheels. Convey to them your requirements and trust them to put together the wheel that best fills your needs. We're of course happy to help put something together for you, but at the same time there are other great builders out there as well. Rich at wheelbuilder, Eric at Ergott wheels, Jude at Sugar and Ron at white mountain wheels are just a couple that come to mind.

4151zero
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by 4151zero

superdx wrote:With all the recent updates to the SES line, wonder if they will be revamping the 3.4s soon. Lighter etc.


I recently returned a set of the new 2.2 SES, and Enve was slowly talking me into a 'new lighter batch' of 3.4's with the new brake surface (just like 2.2) but I didn't go for them...

McGilli
Posts: 368
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:57 pm

by McGilli

Thanks to everyone so far - some good info here that's helping me out.


madcow wrote:
McGilli wrote:My question is - Being on Weight Weenies - are Tune or Alchemy or Extralite hubs able to handle that kind of riding? Are heavier hubs more durable? Bigger brands easier to service?


Typically yes, heavier is more durable, though that's not a universal rule. Bigger brands aren't necessarily easier to service, but they may be easier to source parts when needed.

CEVelo wrote:CK 45 ceramic if you want a stiff wheel build (wider flange than eg DT240) and "no worries high performance"...almost forever.


We build with all of the hubs you've mentioned and I'd be the first to recommend not trying to pick wheel components individually. With wheels it's about looking at your needs and then considering all the parts as a whole. Each component contributes to the entire, and changing one can be offset by changing a different one. I hope that's not as confusing as it may seem. For example if you had a wheel with your desired stiffness but wanted to have fewer spokes you could move to fewer spokes but increase their gauge to offset their number. Or change bracing angle among other things, but then you have to consider how those changes offset other attributes of the wheel. It's pretty important to look at wheels as a complete system.

When it comes to hubs there are 3 that I generally consider the go to hubs for high milage daily riders. DT240, King R45 and White T11. It's hard to go wrong with any of them. Dt is slightly lighter than King and King is a little lighter than White. Though White has a more durable freehub body. In terms of service none of them are hard, but every shop is familiar with DT and most have parts on hand. King uses more proprietary parts that most shops don't stock. White lands in the middle.

There are some great wheelbuilders out there, the best advice I can offer is to work with someone who understands wheels. Convey to them your requirements and trust them to put together the wheel that best fills your needs. We're of course happy to help put something together for you, but at the same time there are other great builders out there as well. Rich at wheelbuilder, Eric at Ergott wheels, Jude at Sugar and Ron at white mountain wheels are just a couple that come to mind.


OK. I can see it now. I like analogies :)

So - buying Zipp - is like buying a Mac. It's basically all ready to go - they've put it all together and there are very few options of customizing.

Buying Enve - is like building your own PC - Say Enve is the case and motherboard - but then you have practically unlimited choices as to what parts you put inside - and will essentially dictate much of the performance.

Got it :)

I understand the position on getting wheels custom built. And on a certain level that would be best for me. I've only been riding just over 3 years, I'm coming up on 60,000km (59,339km) ridden and I've climbed over half a million metres. But as alluded to early in this post - I get bored. Again, in just over 3 years I'm on my 7th bike (Have 3 right now). I currently own 15 wheels (6 sets and 3 singles), and I've sold another 6 sets and a single in that same 3 years.

I sold 3 bikes in the last 3 months to finance my newest build: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=140326

and this set of wheels I'm looking to buy. Might seem like I have $ to burn, but not really. I'm pretty frugal with most things I buy and just eyes out for deals etc...

So - I know that paying the extra - well deserved - money for a custom set 'could' be the best thing for me - But I'd more than likely move on from them anyways. So.... It's me.... not them... :)

This is tough. I really need reliability as some of my rides are 400+km. Some rides are 6,000m+ in climbing. At the same time - I don't just want another set that's the same weight as my 303's. I'm getting older - and with all the KM's I put in and the climbing - saving weight is always appreciated by my body.

Still, please - any experiences - let me know - good or bad. Thanks everyone.
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mattyNor
Posts: 273
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:18 pm

by mattyNor

Just to add something else to the mix, what about industry Nine hubs (which I am 99.9% set on for an upcoming gravel bike wheelset) is there any reason no one has brought them up? From what I've researched they are very durable and in the same weight class as others mentioned.

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pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

As far as hub weight goes, the added weight will be near the center of the wheel. Therefore you may not actually feel the weight difference between two hubs. Based on this I'd suggest going for a more durable (hence heavier) hub. There's a good reason why Enve prebuilt wheels are spec'ed with DT Swiss and CK's, neither of which are the lightest hubs around. If money is no object then I'd recommend Enve's own carbon hubs.

by Weenie


Multebear
Posts: 897
Joined: Sat May 02, 2015 10:11 pm

by Multebear

If you ride more than 20k km's a year, you definitely want the most reliable hubs of the lot. Madcow mentions DT240, King R45 and White T11 as the three go to hubs. Out of those three, I'd say the Whites are most durable, because of the titanium freehub body, which unlike the others won't get chewed up by cassettes.

Why don't you just sell your 303's and spend the money on the Enves, since Zipp aren't known for hub durablity at all.

Another advantage with custom build wheels is, when the rims are worn down, you can replace the rims. With Zipps, you need to replace the whole wheelset.

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