Max Tire Grip for Crit Racing - What Would You Recommend?

[Matt28NJ]

I'm a Cat 3 racer with 5 years of experience, racing in the US.

In 2014 I had a nasty crash in a road race, and since then, my cornering has gone to hell - can't confidently negotiate race courses. As you would expect, it's difficult to race crits -which is the vast majority of my options where I live.

While I work on my riding confidence issue, I'd like to take away any excuse on the grip side - so I'm looking for opinions on what wheel and tire setup would give most grip for tight crit racing.

I currently run these with Conti GP4000 SII (wheels are Zipp 404 with alum brake track).



I'm trying to figure out:
1. Would quality tubulars give the best pure grip (i have a set of Neuvation 50mmcarbon tubies with Conti Comp 22mm tires).
2. Wider wheels with 25mm tires- would this increase pure grip?

Aluminum brake track would give me the most confidence in all conditions - rain, etc - I'd like to stick with that

I'm leaning towards a set of Hed Jet 6+ with 25mm Conti GP4000 clinchers.


Or a set of low profile Pacenti SL23's, HED Belgium +, etc - wide aluminum wheels... aero be damned.

What would you recommend for max grip?

[cerb]

Wider tires do not necessarily equate to better grip. I understand that it's more about the pressures you run and the surface you are riding on.

From what I understand, lower tire pressure allows greater tire deformation and will therefore take longer to 'release' it's grip on the road surface. Wider tyres are more concerned with ride comfort and their aerodynamic interaction with the rim.

I don't know much about tubs, but they are traditionally more 'supple' than a traditional clincher tire. I guess this should equate to better deformation characteristics, but the differences between tubs and clinchers have greatly narrowed in the past few years and I don't think there's really that much difference these days?

Conti GP4000S II are widely accepted to be a great high performance tire for racing. I use the 25mm versions myself for crit racing and have had no issues with grip through sharp corners at 50+kph.

As such, I doubt you really need to change your equipment... however, other things to consider are:

- Saddle position / Bike setup. At one stage, my saddle was too far forward as I was adjusting it forward to see changes in comfort, aero and power output. I reached a point where I constantly lost grip on the rear when cornering at speed. This effectively came down to how much force is going through the back wheel and by moving my saddle back just 5-6mm, I was able to regain all of my rear grip again.

- Positioning on the bike. Outside leg straight and applying pressure to the outside pedal, with counter pressure on the bars. Be on the drops for lower centre of gravity and get used to when/if you need to stop pedalling through corners again - to ensure you don't strike your pedal. Be conservative at first to help regain confidence and make sure you give a couple of hard pedal strokes before you stop pedalling so you don't drop the wheel through the corner (will save you energy too).

- Confidence. This really is one of the big aspects which you need to get back. If you don't prepare for the corner and commit to it properly when you're racing at speed, then you'll do it wrong and neither your confidence nor cornering will improve.


Of course, if you do want to get some new wheels, HED's are a solid choice. For crit racing, i'm all for deep section wheels.

[DeeHubbs]

Start at 80psi and work DOWN from there.

[cerb]

Start at 80psi and work DOWN from there.

Depends on their weight... You don't want to be going much below 80psi if you're a Clydesdale!

[DeeHubbs]

I weigh 206lbs and I'm down to 72 psi in my tires.
This is a great article with a great pod cast:
http://cyclingtips.com/2016/08/cyclingtips-podcast-episode-9-rethinking-road-bike-tire-sizes-and-pressures/

[savechief]

206lbs and 72 psi in what size tire?

OP: Specialized S-Works Turbo Cotton tires seem to get great reviews for both low rolling resistance and grip.

[DeeHubbs]

206lbs and 72 psi in what size tire?

Schwalbe Pro One 25's on Shimano C24

[Marin]

There is nothing you can do to significantly increase cornering grip over your current combo.

Going to more supple (cotton) tires might impove road feel, but won't help you cornering.

Your best best to work on your skilly and on the psychological side. Go ride MTBs downhill, try positive thinking, ride BMX and play with extreme lean angles at low speed, etc.

[Stalkan]

In Crits I've used Schwalbe's R.1, Conti Comps, Vittoria Corsa CX II (not long as i flatted the rear after my second crit), Schwalbe HTs, and currently use Conti Force Tubular and a Schwalbe HT front. All, except the R.1, were/are Tubular in construction and are mounted to 2010 Stinger 6s (measure 28mm at the brake track). My biggest cornering gain came from going from my Seven's straight 1 1/8 steerer to the tappered head set on my old Felt FC. I currently campaign a 14 Felt Felt Aero Road and it's every bit the corner carver that the FC is. All the tires I have used have not left me with a feeling of any difference in cornering traction. And, I would say I have been more limited by the risk I am willing to take in the various crits I have done. Therefore, I agree with the previous poster about getting your mind right. After a crash at Nats this past May in the Crit and a nasty crash on gravel descent in July, I am seriously gun-shy on riding gravel and descending balls out. And I would say it's all in my head and has zero to do with my confidence in my equipment or its ability to perform at a high level.

[Mr.Gib]

Biggest enemy to corner survival is too much weight on the ass. The will cause the bike to loose traction if it passes over an imperfect surface. Weight on the pedals (and the bars) solves this problem every time. Even top level riders forget this from time to time and pay the price. The legs and arms provide very good suspension that keeps you in contact with the road. The ass (spine) not so much.

How much of your weight should be divided between your feet and hands? I can think of a lot of times when I was glad it was 100% - as in zero weight on my saddle. And this can apply whether or not you are turning the cranks.

And as posted above your tires are not the issue. Do watch pressures though. I prefer wider rims with 25 mm tires, but probably because it allows for lower pressures.

[11.4]

There are a lot of "what reviews say" kind of comments here. Fact is, most modern tires have good grip and it comes down to technique and position. You didn't crash before because of bad tires and supposedly good tires won't save you now. When coming back from a crash, think about shifting weight back in the saddle and taking a low position with hands on the drops and your torso low. Don't try to pedal through everything -- come up to the corner fast, brake briefly, and then accelerate as you come out of the corner. In essence, take more variables out of the corner that can detract from stability. You may find you can corner faster that way anyway, but at a minimum, you are focusing solely on weight distribution and not worrying about pedal strikes or any other issue. And just race. you may be the last rider in the line a few times, then move up one position and race a few more laps. That's how you get your cornering legs back.

[sungod]

^^^ this, there's not much to choose between race tyres

fwiw after breaking my hip in a low speed turn, < 16km/hr, on what turned out to be very slippery road surface my confidence was gone

it's still not back fully, maybe never will be, but on roads i know with a clear line (and dry!) i got back to 'proper' cornering by thinking ahead, consciously relaxing as turns approached and reminding myself that i did them before and it was fine

if you're doing crits, can you find another rider and train with them? even if you drop back on a corner the first time, once you see them getting through ok you should become more confident and able to follow their line at speed

[Matt28NJ]

I appreciate the insight, folks. It sounds like there's not much equipment wise I can do to push forward.

It also sounds like there is so real way to measure tire g-forces generated by cornering (such as in the automotive world). Perhaps too many variables, but I'd love to see a tire tester measure cornering grip with some sort of rig.

[11.4]

I appreciate the insight, folks. It sounds like there's not much equipment wise I can do to push forward.

It also sounds like there is so real way to measure tire g-forces generated by cornering (such as in the automotive world). Perhaps too many variables, but I'd love to see a tire tester measure cornering grip with some sort of rig.

The roles of rider position and of cornering technique overwhelm any contribution from tires. Honestly, you are obsessed with a hardware fix for a problem that lies elsewhere. Various people have shown how fast one can corner, even with substandard tires. Just get out there and start following wheels and you'll be back in cornering form in no time.

[sungod]

there were some tests a few years ago, perhaps in the german tour magazine? from memory a guy in a padded outfit took corners on a scooter fitted with the tyres under test, going successively harder/faster until he lost grip

but with the variety of roads surfaces and conditions i'm not sure there's much point, even if a test said tyre x is a bit better/worse than tyre y on a given dry corner, in the wet or on a different road surface it could be the other way around