Bike fitting on Colnago v1-r

Back by popular demand, the general all-things Road forum!

Moderator: robbosmans

User avatar
Mr.Gib
Posts: 5577
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:12 pm
Location: eh?

by Mr.Gib

Steve Hogg has a video on Youtube (sorry don't have the link for you) where he comments on saddle height. IIRC he says he sees too many people come in with saddles way too high. He says if you watch them try to force a gear up a hill you can really tell they are ill fitted. Those of us with experience observing this kind of thing will know exactly what Hogg means.

Bottom line with saddle height, when you ride behind someone and you see them reaching for the bottom of the pedal stroke with every revolution, either with the toe or sliding off the side of the saddle, its obvious there is a problem. These riders will insist that their saddle height is perfect. Indeed if they lower the saddle it will feel terrible to them, but only because they have adapted to the incorrect height. I probably see 10 times as many people with saddles too high then too low. Most are relatively new to the sport, but some are quite experienced. It happens. I was about 1 cm - 1.5 cm too high and compensated by reaching with the toe. Years ago, a really good fitter lowered the saddle, slapped me on the side of the head, and told me to shut up and get used to it. Took about two days.

One reason saddles may often end up too high is because newer riders find the quads hurt too much with proper saddle height and raise the saddle to get their knee and hip angles closer to there usual range - which is a walking or running position.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

User avatar
Calnago
In Memoriam
Posts: 8612
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

@Mr.Gib: I get what you're saying, however there are people who just naturally pedal toes down, not because they are forced to by a saddle that's too high, but because that's just what's natural for them. So, you might set them up according to what you think is pretty darn close on a trainer then when you go ride with them it looks like the saddle is too low and they're not even close to a proper leg extension. So, in a case like this it may appear that the saddle, when properly adjusted for them, is too high. But in reality it's not because that's just the way they rotate their foot regardless.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



User avatar
Mr.Gib
Posts: 5577
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:12 pm
Location: eh?

by Mr.Gib

@Calnago,
Have you ever tried to snap a piece of wood with your foot. You know, put one end up on a rock or something similar and smash down with your foot to break it half? Try doing that with your toe down. This was the point my fitter made all those years ago. The leg works better with the foot at a natural angle. Toe down is not natural, it is affected. Can you pedal toe down? Sure. Will it be as effective as a more natural position? Of course not. That's all I am saying.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

User avatar
Calnago
In Memoriam
Posts: 8612
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

Yup, understand totally what you're saying. But some people just ride like that. And they seem to have good power transfer. Maybe partly because cycling shoes with cleats and stiff carbon soles are more forgiving for foot angle. Sometimes it's just hard to change a persons natural gait or stance or pedaling style. I guess it begs the question: Do you fit to the persons natural tendencies or try to change their natural tendencies to fit some other model. Pedaling styles are pretty varied. I don't believe there's one correct style and anything else is wrong.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

AJS914
Posts: 5397
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

Steve Hogg's blog was a revelation to me. I often felt "crooked" on a bike, usually at the start of a ride. It would eventually go away as I warmed up. Lowering my saddle height per Hogg's method completely straightened me out and made me much more comfortable on the bike.

User avatar
Mr.Gib
Posts: 5577
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:12 pm
Location: eh?

by Mr.Gib

Calnago wrote: I guess it begs the question: Do you fit to the persons natural tendencies or try to change their natural tendencies to fit some other model. Pedaling styles are pretty varied. I don't believe there's one correct style and anything else is wrong.


I have deep experience in coaching (not cycling). Occasionally we would leave a true prodigy alone to some degree. Everyone else was taught to do it "right". In my sport technical flaws showed up on the clock. The nature of cycling just allows the athlete to get away with more and still show well. Is there such thing as "right" in cycling? I think so, the laws of physics and basic kinetics still apply. A look at the pro peloton shows a selection of fundamentally similar pedalling technique. Accounting for differences in size most riders are pretty similar. In particular look at grand tour contenders. Are there any with a funky pedal stroke? Odd bike set-up? I bet all of their saddles are a lot lower than the OP's as a percentage of inseam length.

AJS914 wrote:Steve Hogg's blog was a revelation to me. I often felt "crooked" on a bike, usually at the start of a ride. It would eventually go away as I warmed up. Lowering my saddle height per Hogg's method completely straightened me out and made me much more comfortable on the bike.


Yup, saddle too high = hands hurt, ass hurts, back hurts, neck hurts, even the feet can hurt.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

User avatar
wheelsONfire
Posts: 6283
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:15 am
Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

I also try to lower my saddle. But i get a sore lower back when i go lower.
It seems i have a very narrow sweetspot for the angle (clipped in pedalling to seated on saddle).
(Also it forces too much set back so it feels like i am pedalling with legs and feets forward.)

I also wake up every single day feeling like Pinocchio, stiff and sore in teh back.
It usually disappear after a route on the bike. But it's always back on every single morning no matter if i bike, work or have vacation.
I am always tense, too tense and i can't just relax and it wears off.
This is also a cause for my history of neck/ shoulder and back pains.
I have had it for almost 14 years. Only thing that usually helps is muscle relaxants and after a cycling route.
After cycling, i am much more soft and can easily touch toes with hands.
Before, i am stiffer. This is also noted during a route. It makes me feel i want to be higher or further back.
So every single time i jump my bike, i have the scenario i am more drawn together. When i am warm and relaxed, i stretch out.
When i grow tired, i go back to less stretched.
Ofcourse, this is a trouble for me when it comes to my fit on the bike(s).

I decided i will go back and try my SMP Dynamic again. It has been boxed for a few years.

Fit is weird in some ways.
Some say when your body has developed (better trained), you need to do a new fit.
So after some days of too much confusion i called what is considered among the best fitter in this country, he told me.
A bike fit does not alter or change. Only if something drastical has happened.
Like accident or/ and if you have dropped alot of weight.

I would like to see what he would do for me, but again i am not seated same on trainer (indoor) as outdoor.
I tend to feel better with more stretch on a trainer. Once i come out, i prefer a less stretched position.

Maybe this is why i have about 15 saddles and as many stems!?
Let's say, i change alot.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.

User avatar
Mr.Gib
Posts: 5577
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:12 pm
Location: eh?

by Mr.Gib

wheelsONfire, obviously you have a serious problem with you spine. My guess is that you have degenerative disc disease and arthritic changes in the facet joints of your vertebrae. There are things that can be done. Beyond the obvious core strengthening and stabilizations, look into prolotherapy.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

User avatar
wheelsONfire
Posts: 6283
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:15 am
Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

Gib, i can do all things i do and it's not something you can see on me when i am walking, cycling or whatever.
I have also done MRI with no negative results.
So yes, i guess i need to work that back.
I have a very physical job not including any sitting. You move 100% and you can't do it purely ergo, or ergo at all at many times.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.

3Pio
Posts: 1581
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

I know that this thread is kind old, but i just noticed.

I can see that OP is simlar proportions as my self, (im 175cm, with 82.5 cm inseam), so ill post my Rettul fitting results, which suite me very well on Colnago C60 50S with 110 stem (im using big headset cone cup, and 12 mm spacers under the -7 deg 110mm stem)



Image

darnellrm
Posts: 285
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:06 pm
Location: NC, USA

by darnellrm

Mr.Gib said above "Is there such thing as "right" in cycling? I think so, the laws of physics and basic kinetics still apply. "

It's great to see this in writing! I get so tired on the constant suggestion that however someone thinks they should set up their bike is just as good as any other. There is a right and wrong in most cases ( for power generation, weight distribution, etc ) and we should push folks to do things the correct way, even though it may take some time and work to get there.

Fiery
Posts: 420
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:21 am

by Fiery

But there's another angle to it: different fitting systems will often suggest quite different coordinates for the same person. Which ones are right, and which ones are wrong?

Post Reply