Campagnolo Rear Derailleur 2015+ Upper Pivot

Back by popular demand, the general all-things Road forum!

Moderator: robbosmans

Butcher
Shop Owner
Posts: 1917
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:58 am

by Butcher

Loosing a warranty? Is there any other choice? There is no fix from the factory [yet or maybe never].

I would butcher anything to make it work. What the heck is there to loose? You already got a rear derailleur that that does not work. The worst thing that could happen is you got a rear derailleur that does not work. On the other hand, you may just fix it.

My hats off to you for resolving your issue. You should quickly patent it.

graeme_f_k
Shop Owner / Manufacturer
Posts: 609
Joined: Mon May 26, 2008 12:21 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

by graeme_f_k

Willem wrote:
graeme_f_k wrote:
joeyb1000 wrote:See fix. It took about an hour. Hardest part was getting the new style clip off. Shifting is now perfect both up and down.


The reason the double Seager clip is hard to get off is because it is not designed to come off. If the RD now fails (for any reason) you have now voided your warranty.

What you should have done (and goodness knows how many times I have to type this) is if you find an issue from new and the installation is correct, contact a local Campagnolo ProShop or if there aren't any in your market - CONTACT YOUR MARKET SERVICE CENTRE!

In the UK, that's us ... elsewhere, the SCs are all listed at http://www.campagnolo.com
In extremis, in markets where there is no SC, any of the other SCs will help you, or you can contact the factory.

There is a problem with the spec of the Colnago dropout and we do now have a test-fix for it - both the length and the position of the hook on the dropout work against the Embrace design but the fix we are testing appears to work - in every test instance we've done it, it has introduced no problems but obviously we need to check the performance of those tests over a period of time to make sure that there are no unintended consequences ...

The fix we have does not involve opening the upper pivot, although obviously, we can if that is what is required.

The "fix" you have adopted (which we have tried) has not been fully factory-tested or field-tested as yet and may also cause issues - possibly with wear and tear on the gearing mechanism that facilitates "Embrace".


Not entirely related to this thread, but contacting our "MARKET SERVICE CENTER" here in the USA is not that successful. I have a 2015 Super Record UT Crank set on a Colnago C60 which has been noisy almost from day one. What are the bearing fit clearances in micro mm supposed to be with the Cult bearings? That is radially, between outer race and cups and radially between inner race bore and crank shaft? Knowing that would help understand if I have faulty components, or if it is a design issue, meaning Campy has joined the sloppy Engineering Loctite remedy.


I've read and responded to the thread on this issue.

Calnago has already said a lot of what I'd say and I've just noted that you can't make assumptions about dimensional tolerances on bearings based on off-the-shelf products when the bearing part that you are dealing with is a bespoke item, made to suit a very specific set of circumstances.

I suspect in your case Butcher is possibly right and that the ID of the cups may be at variance with the intended dims, but that needs to be determined at the factory as by and large, in common with most other manufacturers, Campagnolo are reluctant to release their in house schematics for sub-assemblies.

Unfortunately for us all, the industry generally has gone down the avenue of sloppiness, so Campagnolo could be as accurate as they liked and you'd probably STILL need to set their cups in the majority of frames with Loctite. In fact they control their ODs on cups to suit the nominal tolerance in the various press-fit specs but we know from simple measurement of many, many frames that a good many frame manufacturers can't hit those tolerances at the price point, on a predictable basis. Hence the advice in Campagnolo's technical manual, to use Loctite.

The plain fact of the matter is that press-fit was a lousy idea when I first saw it in BBs back in the 1970s and it's a lousy idea now. UT was never designed for it and the adapters were reverse-engineered for it. Shimano never even made an attempt to cater to it - they relied (and still rely) entirely on third party solutions.

The central question is, did you send the cups to Campagnolo NA? Without the physical item in front of them, they're in no position to do anything. It's like coughing down the phone at your doctor and saying "have I got pneumonia?".
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC
Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



graeme_f_k
Shop Owner / Manufacturer
Posts: 609
Joined: Mon May 26, 2008 12:21 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

by graeme_f_k

Arrgo1 wrote:
graeme_f_k wrote:
joeyb1000 wrote:See fix. It took about an hour. Hardest part was getting the new style clip off. Shifting is now perfect both up and down.


The reason the double Seager clip is hard to get off is because it is not designed to come off. If the RD now fails (for any reason) you have now voided your warranty.

What you should have done (and goodness knows how many times I have to type this) is if you find an issue from new and the installation is correct, contact a local Campagnolo ProShop or if there aren't any in your market - CONTACT YOUR MARKET SERVICE CENTRE!

In the UK, that's us ... elsewhere, the SCs are all listed at http://www.campagnolo.com
In extremis, in markets where there is no SC, any of the other SCs will help you, or you can contact the factory.

There is a problem with the spec of the Colnago dropout and we do now have a test-fix for it - both the length and the position of the hook on the dropout work against the Embrace design but the fix we are testing appears to work - in every test instance we've done it, it has introduced no problems but obviously we need to check the performance of those tests over a period of time to make sure that there are no unintended consequences ...

The fix we have does not involve opening the upper pivot, although obviously, we can if that is what is required.

The "fix" you have adopted (which we have tried) has not been fully factory-tested or field-tested as yet and may also cause issues - possibly with wear and tear on the gearing mechanism that facilitates "Embrace".



Graeme
Getting in touch with the "SC" here in Canada and I'm sure in the United States is not exactly like a walk down the block to the chemist, in my case it's 3 time zones and 4300km away. They are resolutely unresponsive and that is what I'm sure is spurring a great deal of these home brew remedies for what has been a very finicky RD. I have Record 10 on a Cannondale(no issues for years, I have SR11 pre 2015 on a Cervelo R3 slightly fiddly but acceptably reliable. I am now running SR11 2016 on a Cervelo R5 and have spent the last three weeks dicking around with the RD to get it to shift in a manner that I would consider acceptable. Yes I have gone through all the normal checks, Hanger(new WheelsMFG unit) and tested by myself and LBS for correct orientation/straightness, new Campy cables cut square and deburred, Changed the tension setting on the lower pivot to the highest setting thinking it would "pull" the upper pivot forward allowing for more "embrace"(Love it, almost laughable marketing garbage) and I am still having the same lousy down shifting from 9 to 8 when on the big ring(slightly better on the small ring. 50/34 and 11/23 are what I'm using. All campy cranks/cogs/chain etc. Shifting up the cog-set is fairly consistent but down is another matter altogether, and yes I did check to make sure the spacers were in the correct order as per the manual.

Without having to do surgery on the upper pivot does anyone think that removing a small amount of material from the back face of the tang on the derailleur hanger thereby rotating the entire unit forward a degree or two might make any difference? At least if this turns our poorly it can be easily and inexpensively replaced. Any other suggestions would be appreciated.


Couple of things - which way are you counting the sprockets?
Smallest as #1 or #11?

Can I get you to send me some images?
Ideally a side-on of the RD when you are on the big ring on the 8th and 9th (the problem area) and the small ring, same sprockets, and finally on small-to-small and small-to-big so I can see the chain length and the extent of chain wrap-around.

You could try kicking the RD "under" more by shaving some material off the hanger "hook" ... but I think you might struggle to remove enough to make a difference.

I have another possible solution for you but I'd like to see the pics first.

One other thing (and forgive my asking if not) but are you crossing the cables, "California Cross" style? I was speaking to one of my colleagues at Cervelo a few weeks ago and he pointed out that Cervelo cable paths are almost dead straight in a "conventional" cabling pattern but have excess friction when crossed.
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC
Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!

Arrgo1
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 1:24 am

by Arrgo1

Graeme,

Counting sprockets 1 =smallest 11 =largest

I will take some pics tonight when I get back in from the office and post

Cables are straight(conventional routing)

Thanks in advance for any assistance you can provide, much appreciated! :beerchug:

Arrgo1
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 1:24 am

by Arrgo1

Graeme,
As promised, here are the pics

19T Cog to 34 FR
Image

18T Cog to 34 FR
Image

18T Cog to 50 FR
Image

19T Cog to 50 FR
Image

11T Cog to 34 FR
Image

11T Cog to 50 FR
Image

Hope this helps with the diagnosis

Cheers

Arrgo1
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 1:24 am

by Arrgo1

Clickity click .... bump

outnumbered
Posts: 226
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:59 pm
Location: Reading, UK

by outnumbered

The outer cable looks a bit short maybe ?

User avatar
dj97223
Posts: 822
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 7:27 pm

by dj97223

Looks to me like your chain will be quite stretched when you get to 50-23 -- maybe too short?
“If you save your breath I feel a man like you can manage it. And if you don't manage it, you'll die. Only slowly, very slowly, old friend.”

AJS914
Posts: 5392
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

What kind of chain? I think I see a KMC link.

FWIW, after years of using KMC chains on Campy 10 speed and earlier I found that they didn't work so well on 11 speed. After struggling with things being not quite perfect, I installed a Chorus chain and the drivetrain got quieter and improved quite a bit.

Arrgo1
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 1:24 am

by Arrgo1

outnumbered wrote:The outer cable looks a bit short maybe ?


If I make it any longer it tends to kink were it exits the chain stay. This is being caused by the inordinate amount of torque being applied by the upper pivot spring. More kink will produce even more cable drag

Arrgo1
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 1:24 am

by Arrgo1

dj97223 wrote:Looks to me like your chain will be quite stretched when you get to 50-23 -- maybe too short?


The chain length is within the correct range as stated in the Campy 11S chain manual.

Arrgo1
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 1:24 am

by Arrgo1

AJS914 wrote:What kind of chain? I think I see a KMC link.

FWIW, after years of using KMC chains on Campy 10 speed and earlier I found that they didn't work so well on 11 speed. After struggling with things being not quite perfect, I installed a Chorus chain and the drivetrain got quieter and improved quite a bit.


As previously stated, chain is Campy Record with a Wipperman Conex11 link. There are no KMC components anywhere as I too have found them to be poor performers with Campy 11

Arrgo1
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 1:24 am

by Arrgo1

I should be receiving a new SR11 11-25 cogset today to replace the 11-23 currently on the bike. At the same time I will also change out the chain to a new Record 11 unit when the cogset is changed, this should at least remove any doubt with regards to those two components.

Arrgo1
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 1:24 am

by Arrgo1

Changed out the cogset for the new SR11 11-25 unit and replaced the chain with a new record unit. Shifting has significantly improved in all cog and ring combinations. I really have no idea why the other combination was giving me problems, but I'm sure a lot happier now.

I am still very curious what "possible fix" graeme_f_k was talking about and if he'd care to comment further.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



graeme_f_k
Shop Owner / Manufacturer
Posts: 609
Joined: Mon May 26, 2008 12:21 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

by graeme_f_k

Hi

We are experimenting just now with a different format of ratchet for the H-screw that will increase the degree of "wrap" or embrace.
I've got a fair crop of bikes out in the wild with the new format piece in position as have my colleagues elsewhere in the world.

We need to do a medium-to-long term field test simply because the new ratchet effectively "over-winds" the springs slightly, so is a departure from their original designed specification. We don't want to rush out there and say "do this" then discover that it's cost a lot of riders riding time because of failures caused by an unintended consequence ....

The issue is caused by the C60 hanger having a greater "kick" backwards (to facilitate easier removal of the rear wheel with fatter tyres, without changing chainstay length), so displacing the effective centre around which the jockey cage turns further back - the solution that we are proposing changes the balance of the upper and lower tension springs (B and H) to draw the RD back under the cassette to where it's intended to be and to help the RD to again track the cassette correctly.

It's to be expected that the 12-25 will give a better performance than, say, the 11-23 as it's close to the middle of the intended operating range of the RD anyway - at the extremes of any mechanical system's operating range we expect that set-up will need to be closer to perfect and this is no exception.

As soon as I can, I will post ...

Be careful of those Connex links - they, like the KMCs, do nasty things to the bumper plate on the inside of the FDs (where present). ...
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC
Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!

Post Reply