Campagnolo 2015 UT / Italian threaded BB / Titanium frame - best practice

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mriddle
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by mriddle

Greetings,

I tried to get all the critical elements involved in the subject line.

Recently built up a DeRosa Titanio with a 2015 SR 4 arm crankset that has a slight creak under heavy load. I've built dozens of frames up with UT and never have heard a single creak. However, I never have built up a titanium bike with UT.

I always start with checking the BB shell for compatibility, mine had come perfect from DeRosa, nice cut threads, 70.2 mm wide (Campagnolo has slightly wider spec for Italian threads). I clean all the thread lock off the cups and hand thread them into the frame with light anti seize and torque them. I lightly grease the hearth joint and torque the crank arms together. Obviously wave washer and clip in place.

Here's my question, should I use Loctite and primer on the cups? Should I install the cups with the factory installed thread lock? Any other Titanium specific issues I should be aware of?

I did install the same crank on one of my carbon frames and it's perfectly silent after over 500 miles so I'm fairly certain it's the cups. I think.

graeme_f_k?
Calnago?

Thanks.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Well, I also like to strip off that hardened threadlocker that comes with the Ultratorque cups. I use a fine awl for that and just go around the threads. I do not use "light antiseize" however. I would put a thick coat of copper based antiseize on the threads and the bottom bracket. I have just started using a product from Morgan Blue called Morgan Blue Aquaproof Paste. It is also used to prevent oxidation and is "extremely waterproof (even in seawater) with high adhesion". We'll see. But it's much less messy than a copper based antiseize, as it's really hard to clean the copper stuff off any parts of the frame you may inadvertently get it on, especially if it's a matte finish. Titanium is notorious for creaks if everything isn't just right. You mention nothing about the facing of the shell. Is it properly faced? Hopefully not coated with paint as an uneven thickness of paint on the edges of the shell has the same effect as if it was not faced at all. A properly faced BB shell is IMPORTANT. And I can't stress that enough. I would only use Loctite on a threaded BB as a last resort and so far, I have never had to. The early Campagnolo instructions used to say the "preferred method" was to use Loctite 222 and thread the cups in by hand. Ignore anyone who tells you that. It was only there at the beginning because too many people didn't have the proper tools to properly torque the cups down and they were cosmetically wrecking the cups, which Campy users never like to see on their brand new bikes :) . They finally removed that gem of an instruction and now explicitly state it is an "inferior" method. Finally.

Don't forget to check things like pedal threads, and crank bolts. Even on brand new cranksets, I will always remove each and every crank bolt, put a teeny bit of grease on any mating surfaces, apply a drop of low strength Loctite 222 (purple) to the threads and reassemble to a torque of just shy of 7Nm. I know the specs say 8Nm, but I virtually never go to the max unless I have problems. So far, I never have.

When the crank is in, does it spin completely freely? If it doesn't then there's a very strong possibility that the facing of the shell is not perfect and the cups are slightly misaligned which transfers to the bearings themselves.

That's really al there is too it. If the shell is properly faced, you should be able to just thread those cups in, pop in the crank (grease the insides of the cups first of course, where the outer bearing race seats), torque it down and go.

Good luck, that's all I got for that.
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graeme_f_k
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by graeme_f_k

We've done the 222 / hand tight method here (rather than at the factory) a few times to test ... well, upwards of 100, actually ... all of our demo bike builds, several of those used by staff, team bike builds etc. It's fine if you follow ALL the instructions (incl. chasing, facing and, crucially, leaving for 24h for the Loctite to fully cure) but I agree with Calnago - correct torque is a far better option.

Activator should not be required in a threaded BB in Ti - first, the reason to use activator is the absence of free metal ions - that doesn't apply in Ti anyway - and second, the galling of the cups you will get with threading into Ti will strip off any surface coating on the cup and that will provide a second bare metal surface for the Loctite to cure against. (by-the-by, We recommend activator in composite frames / press fit scenarios as the adaptors are anodised and the shell is carbon so generally there is no bare metal to activate the Loctite).

Campagnolo apply a skim of Loctite to the cups (they use a variant on 248 I believe) mostly as a belt-and-braces thing for those who fit the cups without anything else - it will act to retard galvanic corrosion, up to a point, at least in the areas of the cup / BB where it's present.

For prep, couldn't agree with Calnago more - chase (though in Ti hopefully it's been done at the factory as Ti is notoriously difficult to chase without a lot of galling, even using correct chaser lubrication) and face off any paint. Paint adhesion to Ti is notoriously poor so to reduce the risk of chipping on the edges of the shell, warm the area up a bit with a hair dryer to soften the paint slightly - don't go mad though, you are not trying to cook a baked alaska! Take the facing back to the bare material - again, hopefully the shell was properly faced before painting at the factory.

Calnago and I differ a bit on the material to insert between the cups and the frame - for Ti frames I use Rocol Ti assembly paste as it's anti-galvanic and and formulated very specifically to reduce galling risk. On the downside it's pretty toxic so try and avoid skin contact (see the can / tube for the handling & risk data). I don't see any problem with Calnago's practice, though - the difference is probably just that as a commercial workshop dealing quite specifically in these types of materials we have all this stuff lurking around, which makes using very specific preparations easy for us. I agree with C 100% on Copperslip and related materials - they really can be a pain to handle / clean up etc. and in general, unless they are very specifically indicated, we neither use nor recommend them.

The 70.2mm should not be an issue - Italian threaded BBs are 70 mm nominal and Campagnolo's tolerance is +/-0.8 mm for UT, so you are comfortably "in" there ...

Occasionally we have seen creaking issues if the safety clip has been stretched on installation so that one "side" isn't fully into the space it should be - so pay a bit of attention to that ... and it's always, even with SR, a good idea to swipe the inside of the cups and the safety clip drillings with a good quality synthetic waterproof grease before assembly (Record and Chorus, pack the cups with grease, the excess will squeeze out) - make sure the inside of the cups are clean and that the grease is too, though!

If the UT has been fitted before, have a look at the king bolt in the middle and just double-check that the captive washer is there under the head - very occasionally(maybe twice or three times in the last 7 years, since we have been the UK SC) we have seen these fracture and fall away. If that happens and you don't notice, everything will appear to assemble correctly but the king bolt can the work loose and the initial symptom will be noise, the movement causing which can end up "eating" your Hirth joint ...

Also agree with C on all the other potentail creak risks. One he doesn't mention but I see lots and lots (and esp on WW bikes) is the rear QR - some skewer / skewer assemblies just don't hold the rear wheel firmly enough. Any movement there is going to cause noise. By the same token, the hanger is worth a check, too. This can apply on the front wheel, too, of course - then it's most noticeable out of the saddle with a bit of "dancing" going on, so there is lots of twist on the front axle.

Torques in Campagnolo-land are "dry" torques. Remember that all you are doing with torque settings is using force to turn a bolt as an analogue for bolt elongation and therefore compression at the head. Any "wetting" (which includes the use of many thread lockers), will make it easier to turn the bolt to get the same degree of elongation. A reduction of around 20% in applied torque to get the same elongation is not atypical in a "wet" bolt compared to a "dry" one. This is well understood in engineering at large but does not appear to have seeped through (if you'll forgive the pun) to many parts of the cycle trade yet. So using 7 nm with thread locker against an 8 nm dry setting should not give any issues at all.

HTH
GFK
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mriddle
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by mriddle

Thank you guys so much!

I've ordered some new cups and cooper based anti seize.

For clarification the BB area is raw Ti, so no paint on the face or theads. I don't own BB tools so I'm going to take it to a trusted shop owner and have him take a look before I re-assemble. I really think the BB is good as is but worth checking.

I'll update as I know more.

All the best,
Marty

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Just want to clarify what I meant in my post when I said I do not use "light antiseize". I should have just put "light" in quotes. What I meant to say is I apply a copper based antiseize (ti-prep for example) but apply it thick, very thick, on both the threads of the cup and the shell. Nothing "light" about my application of it. Never had a problem with removing it no matter how long it's been in there. Good luck... creaks are evil.
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mriddle
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by mriddle

Hey Gents,

Quick update, had my trusted shop owner inspects the BB. They are a Moots dealer so very familiar with titanium. They said the BB was perfect, just as I suspected.

Like you guys, they also recommended the Finish Line Ti Prep, it's more like a paste than the Park product that I've been using. So I installed a new set up cups (with Campy's thread lock in place) with generous Ti prep on the cups and the BB threads. Stuff is messy and hard to clean up. They also suggested it for my seatpost (Ti) and my metal headset cups (Campy Hiddenset).

Torqued everything up and have two 40 mile rides in blissful silence! I'm optimistic but not yet out of the woods. I'll keep you guys posted.

Thanks again for the solid advice, I've always benefitted from your informative posts and have a lot of respect for you fellas.

Fingers crossed.

Marty

LionelB
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by LionelB

So you guys think that the creaking mostly comes from the cups to BB shell interface ? Asking as my Spectrum started to develop a creak and when I pulled the crank, cleaned and re-greased the creak is still there. The left bearing was not that smooth so this could be a cause and I did not touch the cups either....

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by LionelB

Getting this back to the top to see if someone have some opinion on my previous post as I will be close to my Spectrum soon and will investigate the creak again !

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Calnago
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by Calnago

@LionelB: Are you using CULT bearings or Record or Chorus?

But overall, yes... the creaking I've encountered in BB's is usually rooted in the interface between the cups and the shell itself. If it is threaded, and titanium, or alloy for that matter, I've generally used a thick coat of Ti-Prep on the threads of both the cups and the shell. Never had a problem with creaking using this method and the ti-prep prevents all the galling and galvanic corrosion that it's supposed to. Oh, and torque the cups properly.

If it is press fit, then it is imperative to stop the movement between the cups and the BB shell. So many will just mask the problem temporarily by applying grease to the interfaces. All this does is stop the creaks for a while, but even worse, it actually facilitates movement, and thus wear, which is exactly what you don't want in this area. For a press fit into a ti BB shell, I would clean all the surfaces thoroughly, with something like Clean Streak from White Lightning, then use Loctite 609 and the appropriate primer (since Ti is an inactive metal). Use a proper press and drifts to press it in and leave it overnight. Then put the Ultratorque crank in the usual way and you should be good.

Now, if its' a bearing problem, that is a separate issue. For Cult bearings, I will clean and blow out the bearings with compressed air, also using a degreaser or cleaner to get all the grit out. Once squeaky clean, I just apply a 3-4 drops of Pro-Gold synthetic oil and good to go. If the bearings are not Cult, I would just replace the bearings.

Hope that helps a bit.
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LionelB
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by LionelB

Thanks. They are USB bearings of a Record crankset with about 10000km on it. It is my Spectrum with a threaded BSC BB, the cups were installed by TK so I am not 100% sure what was done there.

AJS914
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by AJS914

I had a Litespeed Classic Ti for a couple of decades which saw many different brackets. I never had a single problem with grease on the threads.

mriddle
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by mriddle

Hey guys, about 400 miles and still perfectly silent.
Thanks again.

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maverick_1
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by maverick_1

@mriddle,
Thanks for the update.

As for my Titanio 3.25, approx 1500km, Campy four arm crankset. Zero issues so far.

The ITA BB thread on mine wasn't perfect out of the box and I had to send the frame to my LBS for a proper BB facing + BB cup installation. Nevertheless, I have to agree it's a challenge facing a Ti BB shell, lol..
I don't think a Ti-prep was ever applied to the BB cups (teflon grease problaby), however no hint of creak since day one..
Now, should I ask remove the BB and apply a Ti-prep on it?

Cheers

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Calnago
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by Calnago

@maverick_1: you are fine and I wouldn't worry about it. Grease is just fine as long as you occasionally remove it etc. but with threaded cups they are sometimes just left in there for what seems forever. And in that case, then ti-prep will prevent the galling that can possibly happen, then you find yourself with cups that are seized to your BB shell. In @mriddles case I suspect his creaking was simply caused by either 1) using too little grease or antiseize in the first place or 2) not tightening the cups to the proper torque. There's really not much that can be problematic with a threaded BB as long as it's properly faced etc.
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maverick_1
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by maverick_1

@Calnago,
Noted.
Many thanks for the advice :thumbup:

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