Real World Aero Testing via Chung Method - Data Thread

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rchung
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by rchung

Marin wrote:
maggierose wrote:But nobody can hold 240 watts consistently - it's impossible.


With the testing protcol, the EXACT wattage is NOT critical since the tool will calculate the resistance from power vs. speed, and being in the same ballpark for power just helps with accuracy.


Actually, you need *some* variation in speed and power in order for the estimation to work (sort of like needing at least two equations to determine two unknowns; if you only have one equation then you can't uniquely identify the unknowns). Wider variation in speed or power helps the estimation -- as long as you can maintain the position and your power meter is consistent across those speeds and powers. (That's why we've had problems with Stages meters using this method -- consistency isn't sufficient because we need accuracy across all speeds and powers). A dedicated speed sensor also helps because it's pretty accurate across all speeds. GPS speed isn't quite as good because sometimes it can skip or jump. If you're at high latitudes (like the UK or Canada or Germany or Russia) then GLONASS helps but at the latitude of Southern California you're probably better off with something like a GSC-10.

Marin
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by Marin

Good news for the OP then! :)

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fa63
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by fa63

kgt wrote:Certainly it is not the S5 that gives the advantage.


And you know this because? While I might agree the bike alone may not be the only reason, how can you be so certain as to rule it out conpletely? You have previously admitted to not knowing much about bicycle aerodynamics. We are still waiting for you to generate some data (not opinions) to back up your assertions.

cobrakai
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by cobrakai

Presumably his position would be identical between the r5 and s5 so any difference would be solely attributed to the frame.

RyanH
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by RyanH

Hi Robert, thanks for popping in! Much thanks to developing and putting the work into this methodology.

How much is *some* variation? My understanding is that variation should occur within the lap, but between laps I probably shouldn't do the same thing at the same points, correct? E.g. Don't hold 260w on each incline, coast and then hold 220 on the backside?

I'll admit that I decided to do these efforts at a constant power for partly selfish reasons, to get a hard tempo session in that I'd normally avoid, but also initially in the hopes I could see the results of my efforts by how far I covered at the end of 1 hour. Based on what you've seen, am I diluting my results because of that?

Lastly, a lot of people use shorter, 1km to 2km loops. Is there any issue using a 5km loop? I was assuming shorter loops are for convenience since not many want to endure a full hour to get their cda for one position.

RyanH
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by RyanH

kgt wrote:a. This is a flat tt under constant power. This test has nothing to do with a typical road racing stage. Nobody questions whether aero wheels or frames matter in your case. The unanswered question remains whether those matter in a typical race with teams, tactics, climbing and descending, accelerations etc. etc.


Thanks kgt, I was actually hoping to test this point some time down the road. For example, do alternating days, one two hour session at 240w and the next day at the calculated wattage for inside a pelotón with an aero frame, so let's guess it to be 233w and then finish each session with either an all out effort of some sort or a fixed duration at a fixed wattage and track heart rate (to simulate let's say a 10 minute climbing finish). Average that over 10 runs each and see if a meaningful pattern emerges.

I haven't put a ton of thought into it yet but open to suggestions. I think we can formulate some type of test scenario that would give us useful insight.

DamonRinard
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by DamonRinard

RyanH wrote:It looks like it's about a 5% saving...


Percentages are sometimes useful, but when comparing percentages they must be on the same basis.

RyanH wrote:...Contrast this to Tour's numbers, which are half mannequin by the way, which puts a round tube frame around 240w (IIRC) and a Venge at 205w.


As well as only a half mannequin, TOUR reports air power, not total power. You are also pedaling against tire rolling resistance and bearing losses.

So this is a percentage of a different total.

RyanH wrote:...Cervelo's numbers ... would require a time trial-esque position on the bike to achieve those CdA's.


Right:
Image

You've measured a difference between non-aero and semi-aero.
I wonder if you could measure a difference between light-weight and medium-weight?
Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager, Road Bikes
Cycling Sports Group, Cannondale
Ex-Kestrel, ex-Velomax, ex-Trek, ex-Cervelo

RyanH
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by RyanH

DamonRinard wrote:You've measured a difference between non-aero and semi-aero.
I wonder if you could measure a difference between light-weight and medium-weight?


:) Hi Damon,

I think semi-aero would be discounting the Foil a little too much, unless aero implies a TT bike. A simplistic plugging of numbers into the Power-Speed calculator (inclusive of Crr) to back into the Tour data would result in estimated CdAs of: Cervelo S5 (0.121), Scott Foil 2016 (0.1262) and a traditional frame (0.151). Extrapolating these numbers out to a full person with a horizontal back and horizontal arms on the top of the hoods, let's put the Cervelo as the baseline at 0.300 CdA, then the Foil should be 0.3052 and the traditional would be 0.33 resulting in necessary wattage at 45 kph to be 415.1, 421.2 and 450.3, respectively. I don't think a 6w difference causes the Foil to be lumped into the semi-aero category.

Anyway, I think my point is supported, people are not riding around on these frames with TT bars as their primary use case. When taking a realistic position, the effects of these frames are much smaller. On the other hand, for testing purposes, it may provide better data for me to clip on some aero bars to minimize the largest influence on CdA, me and the variability it brings through very slightly changes in position.

Cheers,

Ryan

DamonRinard
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by DamonRinard

Ah, sorry Ryan, my apologies. I should have noticed in your photos you have the new Foil, not the first generation I was remembering. That was a medium bike: medium stiff, medium weight, medium aero, just all around medium.

I agree, clip on aero bars wouldn't be a normal way to ride a road bike. But to reduce variability in body position they could be useful, if you're looking for difference in frames, wheels, etc.

However I don't agree the effect of aero frames is much smaller with hands on the hoods, in fact it's the same as when on aero bars. Yes, the percent is smaller, but it's not because the drag difference is smaller, it's because the total drag is higher. Numerator stays the same, the denominator is what's changing.

What do you think about testing weight differences?
Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager, Road Bikes
Cycling Sports Group, Cannondale
Ex-Kestrel, ex-Velomax, ex-Trek, ex-Cervelo

lowside67
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by lowside67

cobrakai wrote:Presumably his position would be identical between the r5 and s5 so any difference would be solely attributed to the frame.

The S5 has a significantly shorter head tube than the R5. This could presumably create some difference in position.

Mark

RyanH
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by RyanH

Weight differences would be interesting to test, but I think very hard to do so accurately. I think you'd have to have a solid idea of CdA unless you were testing on something stupid steep where CdA differences become minimal. Running a quick calc on an approximately 40 minute long climb near me, with a CdA of 0.36, 300w output, total weight of 78kg, 5% grade and 13.6794km long, the estimated time breakdown by weight would be:

KG 78.00 78.50 79.00 79.50 80.00
KPH 21.37 21.28 21.19 21.10 21.02
Min 38.41 38.57 38.73 38.89 39.05

So, adding 2kg, which is the difference between a UCI legal bike and some of the lighter bikes on this forum, would result in a little over 30s slower. But, let's put that into context, just a 1.5KPH headwind would erase the difference. For slow people, at 200w, it makes a bigger difference at a full minute.

rchung
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by rchung

RyanH wrote:How much is *some* variation? My understanding is that variation should occur within the lap, but between laps I probably shouldn't do the same thing at the same points, correct? E.g. Don't hold 260w on each incline, coast and then hold 220 on the backside?

In classical "regression" testing, you do a constant speed run at, say, 15, 18, 21, 24 (and maybe 26 or 27 mph). So the range from the slowest to fastest speed is maybe 10 or more mph. In my approach, the wider the range the better because it lets you estimate both the Crr and the CdA. If you're using the same tires and tubes at the same inflation pressure and you don't really care about estimating the Crr and are just interested in the relative difference in CdA you can get away with a narrower range. The reason why a little bit of elevation change is useful is because it lets you vary the speed and power naturally. Out-and-backs on a half-pipe course are kind of handy because they let you vary the speed naturally, and they also let you vary the speed over essentially the same stretch of road since you go up and down a slope over that same section.

I'll admit that I decided to do these efforts at a constant power for partly selfish reasons, to get a hard tempo session in that I'd normally avoid, but also initially in the hopes I could see the results of my efforts by how far I covered at the end of 1 hour. Based on what you've seen, am I diluting my results because of that?

Probably fine, as long as you're not too concerned about estimating the Crr.

Lastly, a lot of people use shorter, 1km to 2km loops. Is there any issue using a 5km loop? I was assuming shorter loops are for convenience since not many want to endure a full hour to get their cda for one position.

I think the only issue is that a lot of the analytical power comes from going over the same stretch of road multiple times. If you're willing to spend an hour doing one test, there's no problem. Most of the time I don't have quite that much attention span, so I use shorter loops just so I can keep my focus. Basically, it's a mental crutch. But maybe you don't have that problem, so 5km loops are fine.

Basically, I came up with this method because I was doing lots and lots of training laps around the bike circuits at the Bois de Vincennes and the Bois de Boulogne when I lived in Paris. They were about 3.2 km around, and sometimes I'd speed up, sometimes I'd slow down, sometimes I'd do 2x20's, both courses have a little bit of elevation change so speed and power weren't constant but tended to vary, and I was wondering whether I could make use of the data to estimate my aero drag even though I couldn't do the "classical regression" method. Turns out, I could.

rchung
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by rchung

DamonRinard wrote:What do you think about testing weight differences?

I've done "delta mass" tests where I rode with a water bottle filled with sand and then empty. It's sort of like the mirror image of testing two helmets to try to estimate the difference in CdA. In this case I was holding my CdA constant and I was varying the mass to see how small of a difference in rolling resistance I could measure. I have the records someplace, but I think the mass difference between full and empty bottles was close to 1.5 kg. I did something like 8 km, and I had predicted that with my Crr, the difference in VE after 8 km should have been something like half a meter (I think). I think it came out to something like 40 cm, so I was pretty happy.
Last edited by rchung on Sat Jul 09, 2016 6:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

I've ridden the Rose Bowl and I don't know how you can maintain a constant power on both sides of the circuit. That to me is quite amazing in itself.

As to the power to race class chart, I looked at my own numbers and my position on the chart. IMHO the chart is 1 to 1.5 class off. Meaning a solid Cat 3 is really a fast Cat 5.

My 5min power is 4.5w/kg and 20min power is 4.0w/kg. The chart says that I should be a Cat 3. I can assure you I'm nowhere near a Cat 3, LOL.


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justkeepedaling
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by justkeepedaling

kgt wrote:RyanH your test is very respectable and in real conditions that makes it even more creditable. Actually it is the best test of aero equipment I have ever seen. Congrats.

There are two critical issues though related to your interpretation of data:

a. This is a flat tt under constant power. This test has nothing to do with a typical road racing stage. Nobody questions whether aero wheels or frames matter in your case. The unanswered question remains whether those matter in a typical race with teams, tactics, climbing and descending, accelerations etc. etc.
b. The Cavendish - Kittel example is not suitable for conclusions. We know nothing about the technical-physiological data of the two rider-bike systems. Certainly it is not the S5 that gives the advantage. Even if you isolate the CdA then the decisive factor would be the lower CdA of Cav's body in comparison to Kittel's
body.


a. Explain Steve Cummins' wins. Any of them.

b. Cavendish - Kittel example is suitable because you keep comparing people to other people. You need to compare a rider to himself on another bike. You cannot isolate CdA by itself on a rider/system. It's power to drag that you need to look at. As a subset of that, how aero a bike is saves energy and thus the average power of a sprint can be higher.

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