kgt wrote:thumper88 wrote:Sure, I can offer a few ideas as to why they would be heavier. They could be using lower mod carbon.
Wrong
thumper88 wrote:The one thing positive thing I can say about carbon frames with greater wall thicknesses etc is that they CAN be more robust in, say, an accident, or just generally.
True
thumper88 wrote:Is this the direction you want for a race bike?
A race bike could even be dispossable after a race. We are talking about what is more robust and what is not. Minimal wall thickness always makes for a less robust frame.
3Pio wrote:Im not even sure about quality of Pinarello's. On my FP3 there is really bad Headset design
kgt wrote:FP3 is a cheap carbon frame, you cannot expect the best quality obviously.
FP3 is not high end bike, definetly, but compared to the competition it was not that cheap (cost was more then 2000 eur for the whole bike. In that time i could buy similar grade of bike from the competition for 1500-1600 eur). And in the lower part of the spectrum, i can expect lower quality of riding, to be heavier and not that stiff as highend, but not to be compromised quality or enigneering of the product. Seem that they was selling the look of curvy forks (similar to Dogma), and seem that they were care only about more profit doing with saving on engineering and quality of materials. Another issue i had with the bike was wheels. They choose terrible design for their MOST wheelset i got on that bike, and they were broken where spokes meet rims after a while (going uphiill, not from hitting a pothole or something). If u analyze what they done, they cared about look of the wheelset, tried to save weight with 24 spokes design and used the most terrible rims i ever seen (they were flexyest wheelset i ever tried).Probably they hoped that those bikes will buy people who actually dont ride... In same time, i have even cheaper Bianchi Sei Giorni (Single Speed Fixie), for City Commuting, and also it have a Carbon Fork. After two years of riding every day (winter, rain, hot...), jumping on the sidewalks, hitting potholes Every day, NOT even a slightly trace of play in the headset. On that FP3 i was replacing headset bearings three times in 4500 km, and now i need to replace the fork.Im riding bikes for more then 20 years, and had different bikes (in this time i have Specialized Epic Marathon Carbon from 2007, Bianchi Sei Giorni, Colnago C60 and this Fp3). Pinarello Fp3 is FIRST bike in this 20 years where i actually had this kind of issuess with the headset and the rims. And Seem that only quality parts installed on this bike is Campagnolo Veloce groupset
3Pio wrote:Also marketing on previous Dogma's and shape od forks.. On dogma F8, all of the suden last shape it's not working anymore..
kgt wrote:They never claimed their onda forks did miracles (like a 40sec gain over a 20km course etc.). They just said that these forks are stiff and rigid, while comfortable at the same time. Nothin dramatic. Have you ever heard of Hetchins?
Their marketing there was based that curvy design would damp the road vibration and make it more comfortable so better performance.Seem that that design just add weight and nothing else...(Which we can see in new design dont work anymore what they were saying..)
3Pio wrote:the sell just old fame and marketing..
kgt wrote:"Old" fame? Is 2016 already old? And what is their marketing about really? Their Asym system? Their quality of Torayca carbon? Their 12 Tours? I see nothing exaggerating in all that.
Yes, old fame.. Fame about quality of engineering, not about winning Tour De France.. We know that Tour De France etc, win who have more money to invest in winning.. They got their old reputation based on ehthusiasm when Gianni was racing and when he was still put part of his spirit in the design of the bikes.. Now look like they lost their enthusiasm, and try just to save money in production and make even more profit..
About Asym system.. It's not their design.. ASYM Systems were using TIME VXRS before Pinarello's or Look.. And what is the purpose of this design? To save more weight cutting material on the side that is not needed to have extra materials.. So how then if this technology is so advanced, Pinarello Dogma F8 is one the heaviest frame in this moment?
Torayca carbon - How good high end carbon, differ from cheap and not that good? In my opinion difference is quality of ride and weight. If u use good quality carbon, it's possible to have same quality of riding with adding less material, so that way to save weight and not compromise quality of riding or the bike.. So how then Dogma F8 using the finest carbon on the planet is one of the heavier in this moment?
Another quality of good carbon, is dampening from the road.. So if they use the best carbon on planet who does miracles why they use the rear shock on Dogma F8-K?
Just to mention that one of the parts that they save weight is pressing bearings directly to carbon (in the headset) and not like before in alloy part. When u see how they claim their weight it's smell even more like MARKETING gimmik everything (without paint, without hardware).
How is then possible that Colnago C60 is almost same weight of Dogma F8, and Colnago dont put everywhere words like Assymetric, Ultra Light, Toracay carbon.. And in same time have much better paint job, actually care about quality (bearings pressed in alloy not directly in carbon or alloy chainstays, or design of bottom bracket, in same time is Made in Italy (versus saving producing in Taiwan), and cost even less then Dogma F8?In same time, at least in my test rides i found out that C60 is stiffer then Dogma F8 and much more comfortable. If that Taracay and Assymetric does a lot, then Dogma F8 should be much lighter, stiffer better bike then bike like C60 (who "dont" use all that technology
, but seem that they have much better engineering not based on just marketing), but in reality it is not (im really glad that i had a chance to test ride them both otherwise i would buy dogma F8 eating all that marketing words).
Dogma F8 X-Light? Even less Engineering, and ridiculous Weight limit (seem that they just put thinner material and that's it). And we saw what happened this year on TDF with that frame..
Sorry, i really liked Pinarello's but i just open my eyes and find out that they become another generic non enthusast company who care about profit and nothing else.. They really need to get back their enthusiasm from the old fame (from 80's and 90's).