tour mag aero tests a pinarello dogma and .....

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2lo8
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by 2lo8

154lb weight limit, wow. I mean it's not that I don't quality, but that's over 10 kilos less than the weight limit on most lightweight racing parts.
[14lb(6.35kg) of no carbon fiber]
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pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

What's the conversion ratio for Italian pounds to US pounds?


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2lo8
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by 2lo8

I did not consider that when converting Italian pounds to French kilos.
[14lb(6.35kg) of no carbon fiber]
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ichobi
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by ichobi

Isnt that kinda pointless? There are lighter frames out there with bettet weight limit. Thats terrible work honestly.


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stormur
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by stormur

BH Ultralight Evo : lighter frame, weight limit : 135kg..
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thumper88
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by thumper88

stormur wrote:BH Ultralight Evo : lighter frame, weight limit : 135kg..


Run of the mill 2016 Evo Hi-Mod, mine was under 740 grams, with a fork that was surely 100 grams lighter than the F8's and no rider weight limit of course.
The F8 ultralight frame will inevitably be a tad heavier than Pinarello says, but they have been behaving at least a little more sanely since the last generation of Dogma, which was a fat pig with no strong points other than record-breaking prices and that silly, squiggly fork. I'm still waiting to hear why, if that thing tested so well, they dropped it, and why no one else uses it. Pure marketing silliness.
Jaguar apparently gave them real technology, put them on a good path. Still, I would be interested to see how the F8 does in the wind tunnel in various angles off axis.

Daniel1975
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by Daniel1975

And what do you really know about high end frames? Have you ever ridden a Dogma or are you just talking about 'things you've read'?
I've had Addict, Tarmac S-works, SuperSix and I still own a 60.1. That 'way to heavy' bike of 7.05kg is still the best riding bike in this line up.

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by 3Pio

Daniel1975 wrote:And what do you really know about high end frames? Have you ever ridden a Dogma or are you just talking about 'things you've read'?
I've had Addict, Tarmac S-works, SuperSix and I still own a 60.1. That 'way to heavy' bike of 7.05kg is still the best riding bike in this line up.



I was riding for few years Pinarello Fp3, and of course i had bias to the Pinarello as brand, so thinking to upgrade to Dogma F8. Because it was expensive upgrade, i wanted to try how it ride before i buy it, and also to be sure about fitting... In last few months before i buy the new bike, i test ride few bikes including Dogma F8. What i realized my self after this tests?

That Pinarello is actually pure marketing.. I think they lost Enthusiasm on which they made their reputation, and became just Marketing Based Company. So at the and i bought Colnago C60 which ride so much better then Dogma F8. I thought that Dogma F8 is stiffer for climbing, lighter and because of aero benefit faster on flat.. But at the end i found out that i cant notice any difference in flat riding C60 vs Dogma F8 (i even think im faster on c60 because is more comfortable), it's stiffer for climbing (this was biggest suprise for me, i was really thinking Dogma F8 would excel here..), and the weight difference is not that big (if there is any at all when u consider that C60 have lighter Fork).

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by User Name

So, we've had about 100 pages of aero frame thread chat; what's the consensus?
:thumbup:

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fa63
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by fa63

The consensus is that there is no consensus :D


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thumper88
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by thumper88

Daniel1975 wrote:And what do you really know about high end frames? Have you ever ridden a Dogma or are you just talking about 'things you've read'?
I've had Addict, Tarmac S-works, SuperSix and I still own a 60.1. That 'way to heavy' bike of 7.05kg is still the best riding bike in this line up.



Yes, I've ridden it. Saw no need to own it. You like those forks? Believe they make sense? Can you explain the frame weight?
I've had a long string of bikes, including s-works venge, mcLaren venge, s-works sl4 tarmac, allez dsw, cervelo r3, early Noah Ridley, cervelo s5 and santa cruz stigmata among others. The s-works bikes were all lighter and better-handling bikes, though the ride vs the dogma might be debatable in some cases. Ditto the 2015 s5. The dogma was certainly better than the Ridley which is a pretty blunt instrument.
Also, I have about three years in the engineering department of a composites manufacturer, mostly medium tech, but a fair amount of carbon and tad of kevlar work.
That's it. Im sure it won't convince many. The power of Pinarello marketing is pretty vigorous.

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kgt
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by kgt

You are not a fan of Pinarello and that's fine.
OTOH Pinarello's fame is certainly not based on marketing. Unless you consider its unique heritage (11 Tours de France wins etc.) as 'marketing'. You insist on Pinarello frames not being lightweight but that is for a reason obviously. Colnagos are even heavier for similar reasons. Such frames are definitely more sturdy than any Specialized or Cervelo and of a higher quality in terms of materials and manufacturing. If you are in the engineering department of a composites manufacturer, as you say, you already know that or you may check it out.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

In fairness, I think Pinarellos' "onda" curvy stays and forks were/are indeed nothing but an attempt to differentiate their look from other brands. And they certainly did that and were pretty radical at the time. But claims of performance benefits because of them are IMO nothing but pure marketing. And while definitely creating an instantly identifiable brand look, they were kind of a love 'em or hate 'em kind of thing.


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by User Name

fa63 wrote:The consensus is that there is no consensus :D

ha :thumbup:

thumper88
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by thumper88

kgt wrote:You are not a fan of Pinarello and that's fine.
OTOH Pinarello's fame is certainly not based on marketing. Unless you consider its unique heritage (11 Tours de France wins etc.) as 'marketing'. You insist on Pinarello frames not being lightweight but that is for a reason obviously. Colnagos are even heavier for similar reasons. Such frames are definitely more sturdy than any Specialized or Cervelo and of a higher quality in terms of materials and manufacturing. If you are in the engineering department of a composites manufacturer, as you say, you already know that or you may check it out.


Sure, I can offer a few ideas as to why they would be heavier. They could be using lower mod carbon and having to increase wall thickness to make up for that. Or because of less sophisticated engineering, they could be going conservative on their layup schedules, and adding more materiel than elegant engineering might call for.
But when you move along the spectrum toward heavier laminates and more weights, you are by definition somewhat undermining the reasons for using high-end composites.
It's hard to imagine that their engineering and R&D is as good as say Specialized's, Cannondale's or Treks (and even they make boo boos). But I could be wrong.
The one thing positive thing I can say about carbon frames with greater wall thicknesses etc is that they CAN be more robust in, say, an accident, or just generally. Note the "can." That depends on engineering for the layup -- the right amount of fiber on load paths etc -- that is taking good advantage of that additional material.
In the most basic case, any bike built with thicker walls is going to stand up better to say the impact of a dropped tool.
Is this the direction you want for a race bike? I dunno, up to you. But this is weight weenies. Not let's-be-more-robust-than-Honest people tough, can and do disagree constantly on what constitutes good engineering for light bikes.
But that fork really, really made me suspicious of who was doing their engineering... of both their capabilities and motivations.

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