Campagnolo - noisy drivetrain on new Colnago C60

[wedgie]

Many thanks for all of your opinions and advice.

Graeme, your's is a very interesting explanation regarding the noise from the chain/chainring interaction. I can see how the noise could be amplified by the substantial frame cavity on the C60 with the stiffer 4 arm cranks. I also agree that there will probably be a reduction in noise after a few hundred kms.

Everything on my rear derailleur has been adjusted and readjusted to campagnolo's instructions. Jockey wheels are correctly installed, upper pulley to largest (27t) sprocket when in the small ring is probably 8mm but that's about as close as I can get it. However, the more I look at the derailleur, the more I think that there is a problem with the pulley cage. The lower pulley never runs in the middle of the chain links regardless of the sprocket the chain is on. The outside edge of the lower pulley is always brushing the inside plates of the chain, even in a "perfect" chainline. It appears to be angled and not parallel to the centre line of the frame (the hanger is definitely aligned, vertically and horizontally). This is where the noise is coming from. Sugarkane has suggested that there is a known problem with twisted cages on 2015 Chorus rear derailleurs. Could this be the problem?

[sugarkane]

i suspect a bad mech. thats the same issue I've seen
I've had to replace 1 unit from a uk suppler and 2 from the Australian distro

[graeme_f_k]

As I mentioned in my last post, the cage of all 11s RDs has always had a designed-in twist - it's been part of the design since 2009, so that in and of itself is absolutely *not* the issue.

Also as I mentioned, there does appear to be an infrequent issue in some production units where the derailleur cage is not sitting correctly oriented relative to the lower knuckle but the cause of this problem is not clear - it does not appear to be a batch problem, or unique to a specific product range.

If you find yourself affected by this issue, from the UK Service Centre perspective, if you are in the UK, PLEASE send us the dearilleur here at Velotech, or go to a Campagnolo ProShop who have direct access to us here at Velotech ... we / the ProShop need to have a copy of the proof of purchase with the unit in order for us to examine it under warranty - but we will look at it and repair / replace as appropriate.

The initial assessment will be visual, then in greater detail using a jig that we have constructed based around a pillar mounted accurately perpendicular to a surface plate, faced off and drilled / tapped to accept the fixing bolt of the RD. This jig allows us to determine that the RD turns around the top pivot bolt in a plane perpendicular to the centre-line of that bolt. Finally we'll assemble the RD to a system that we know to be 100% accurately aligned and do a shifting check.

This is not a quick job but it will allow us to find, quantify and hopefully, if it can be corrected, correct the issue. If we can't correct the problem, we willl in general replace the RD provided there is no contra-indication such as evidence of crash damage etc ...

Calnago, on the C60, the dropout / hanger design is marginal against the Campagnolo specification, that is to say that the centre to centre length is right on the absolute max, as you've noted ... but critically, the "stop" on the hanger is not ideally placed from a Campagnolo Rev 11+ perspective.

Our current observation in Velotech is that this gives an issue that simple manipulation of the H and B screws doesn't fully resove on a stock RD, though it does get *quite close*.

In co-operation with the factory, teams and other Campagnolo SCs, we are currently looking to see if there is a solution that can be safely applied to all cases as a workaround for this case of an "only just" compliance with the expected frame and hanger compatibility.

I don't want to say too much (as the last thing we want is users trying un-tested variations in some of the parts that the RDs are assembled with, given the possible safety concerns that raises) but there are early indications that a combination of specific spring tensions and using a different H-Screw ratchet might help to resolve this issue.

[OldRider]

Several things here from experience of building a large number of 2015 11s bikes and rectifying problems reported by customers.

The short rear triangle of the C60 is not a big problem - it barely impacts on performance or noise so long as the FD set up is spot on. We've had 2015 Chorus working quite happily on TT frames with 395 mm rear ends ...

A lot of the noise issue seems to be a result of the stiffer 4 - arm crank design supporting the outside chainring better and transmitting noise more effectively into the frame cavity. The big void (and in a C60 it's really big) then acts like a particularly effective sound box, amplifying this considerably.

The 4 arm cranks use the SC14 chainring profiles which are the same as OverTorque and OverTorque does not appear to give noise issues ... so logically it can't be a chain to chainring interface in isolation.

From my own, very direct experience, I have an old Bianchi alloy SL3 frame with Chorus 2015 11s (my own spare bike) which runs no more noisily than it did with the 2012-version system which used to be on it - wheras I have a Bianchi Oltre which was definitely noisier when built up initially with a 2015 group ... but the noise rapidly reduced with use, so after maybe 200km it was not significantly noisier than the SL3.

Having also put a few bikes together with the Shimano 4 arm cranks, I've noted the same problem there, which is part of the reason I think it's as much a crank-and-frame related problem as anything.

Shift issues around the middle of the cassette are typically about H screw setting if everything else (including locking ring torque on the cassette) is correctly set. On 2015 groups, s little time spent balancing the H and B screw settings against each other plays handsome dividends, the object being to get the top jockey to track the profile of the cassette as accurately as possible. The more "free" chain there is from the point of release by the sprocket to the point of pick-up by the jockey wheel, the flaker the shifting will be. C60s are particularly troublesome because of the design of the rear dropout and we have even seen cases recently where we have had to change the H Screw drive ratchet to get acceptable performance.

The twist on the RD cage has not changed since 2009 - we have seen one or two RDs where the cage does not appear to sit correctly on the lower knuckle, though. It's not clear what causes this and in these cases we have swapped the RD under warranty. We are awaiting the results of full analysis in the factory for the cause of this problem.

On a very, very small number of RDs, we have seen the lower jockey fitted back to front from the factory and some end users are not aware that it is directional and so sometimes mis-assemble it if dropping the jockeys out to clean them ... so in a noisy transmission this is always worth a check.

The latest KMC 11s chains, which we don't recommend in any case, have been changed to optimise to some extent for thick-thin rings and 1 x systems, leading to a performance still further away from that of the dedicated Campagnolo chain. Again, we have noted an increase in meshing / de-meshing noise on both Shimano and Campagnolo systems with these chains.

HTH

Thank you for a very informative post. I learned a lot.

I have a C59 and a C60, size 50s. Both run 2015 Campy Record and both run KMC chains...and both are noisy.

By contrast, I also have a 1989 Bottecchia SLX running Campy Athena with a Campy Record chain. The drivetrain on the Bott is buttery smooth and super quiet.

Graeme, could you please elaborate on why you do not recommend the use of KMC chains?

I like the KMC chains but if there is a potential problem I (and others) would like to know.

[bm0p700f]

campagnolo are aware of the OP's issue. Graham from velotech can explain the solution. He told me today but I have forgot. I think it is the new RD-RE800 pulleys with taller teeth. I am sure its that. they have done this to resolve some of the running issues created by 135mm spaced bikes and bikes with short chainstays.

[wilwil]

Im running SR on a C60. At last I have it working properly. As in another post on here with a Cervelo running SR, change the mech hanger to a Wheels Manufacturing or Pilo version. The Colnago hangers are too soft for the necessary cable tension – I have tried two. I had an Extreme Power and had to change the hanger to get the older Record to work properly too.

Also I think the Campag gears prefer a thicker chain lube to run well: I use Rock n Roll Gold which is very thin and clean but after installing a new Record chain that was covered in grease the drive train is silent. I wiped off the excess grease using R&R Gold. Im not sure now what lube Im going to use. I have also installed the new Record and had the 'twisted cage' issue with the chain not running over the lower jockey properly.

RD-RE 800 are the old jockey wheels. Ive heard there are new jockeys for 2018.

The H adjustment is as far as it can go to get the upper jockey optimum distance to the cassette with an 11-27 cassette. Ive noticed if this distance is too great the shifting to the larger sprockets is very clunky. Im not sure how the B screw works for Campag so I haven't touched it.

[vinc]

I'm not sure I understand the thing with the H screw. And since I'm struggling a bit with adjusting the Record RD on my C60 as well on the middle chainring (the 18 out of 12-25) of the cassette can someone please explain it some more?
1. Which screw is it exactly
2. How can I adjust it to get a possible better shifting

[c60rider]

This video might help explain it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoGyvl0eXWA
It's pre-2015 Campagnolo and he refers to the H screw as the B screw but it will make it clear what it is you're trying to achieve with it

[vinc]

Thanks, I think I've got it settled by turning the silver colored screw in the picture below all the way in. Just wait after my next ride.



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