Movistar rider injured by disc brake in Paris-Roubaix

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Sure they can... Hydraulic rim brakes. I put them on my touring bike over 15 years ago. Also, why not a choice of two fork options, one for disc, one for rim. Since 80% or stopping power is in the front let the disc lovers have their disc brakes and the rim brake lovers have their rim brakes. Simple choice of forks. Rear would be hydraulic rim for both. Would completely alleviate the need for new frames, and/or longer chainstays, and a whole rethink of the chainline issue with moving today's road groups over to a rear spacing of 135mm and a corresponding change in chainline. Everyone is happy then. Except of course, the manufacturers.
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MoPho
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by MoPho

bm0p700f wrote:Calnago, the roads are paved here as well, its summer so there is no mud but coming down keddington hill at 38 to 40 mph (that is enough on this hill) i can brake later on my disc brake bike than any of my rim brakes bikes. So while my rim brakes work o.k in all conditions i have more confidence in disc brakes.

Thats not issue though. Roadies are a conservative bunch and highly resistant to change. Roadies convince themselves that what sort of works most of the time is actually the best technical solution and then say why change whats not broke. Eventually whether anyone likes it or not the uci will allow disc brakes into racing it may take another three years but it will happen and then everyone will realise that all the fears where unfounded.



Yup, sunny and paved here in California and I see lots of folks on disc bikes and many of the guys I ride with are saying their next bike will be disc. Lots of great descending here.
I've spent a bunch of time on a disc race bike and no noises, no chainline issues. Waiting for the arrival of mine.

I've never bought anything based on whether a pro uses it, if anything it's just the opposite in that I might have some interest in how it's used in racing after I bought the product. That said, I don't think I could name any of the riders that use the bikes I have and my interest in pro racing is very casual at best. Most of the people I ride with don't pay much attention to pro racing either, even those who amateur race.
I don't think this forum is very representational of cycling in general, it would be a safe bet that the vast majority of cyclists don't give a shit about racing.

There is also a difference between wanting your bike/clothes/etc. to look "pro" vs buying stuff because actual pros use it.


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tabmaster
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by tabmaster

Agree, rim brakes have vastly improved in the 25 years that I've been racing. So, I fully expect that incremental improvements could be made. It's just a case of whether or not manufacturers choose to do so. In this world, there are far too many 'vested interests' & the cycle industry has its fair share from Hein Verbruggen to large bike manufacturers and cycle clinics somewhere in the middle. Granted, roadies are very reticent to change but I don't recall a wholesale dislike of clipless pedals or handlebar gear controls. It's high time the manufacturers stopped pissing about with things that have worked properly since the dawn of *f##k* time - press fit bottom brackets are another example. Threaded cups work very well and don't work loose & creak like any of the multitude of PF 'standards' that now exist. Cheaper for the manufacturers to make so increased profit margins. Make a large proportion of road frames obsolete & thereby force the purchase of new equipment on all, regardless of whether it works better or not - more profit. There is a name for it: It's called 'corporate greed'.
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Calnago
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by Calnago

Roadies resistant to change? That's a pretty big generalization which I don't think is necessarily true at all. In fact, it would seem just the opposite if you look at how quickly they are to adopt whatever fashion trend pops out of nowhere. It's kind of embarrassing actually. And funny all at the same time. I've got nothing against discs, but overall I prefer a nice rim brake on a road bike. If someone wants them on their road bike, fine. I don't, and know many others who don't as well. I've tried discs and was evalutating and riding some disc braked bikes when I ultimately decided on a rim braked Trek Emonda instead. It just suited my needs better and the discs were nothing special in my mind... kind of meh. Had they been "Wow, these are a game changer", I might have made a different decision. Clipless pedals were a game changer. Shifting in the levers was a game changer. Discs on road bikes.... meh. But of course because I haven't jumped on the latest trend I suppose I will be called a Retrogrouch or something. Fine with me. I know what I like.
Last edited by Calnago on Mon Sep 12, 2016 1:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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MoPho
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by MoPho

Yeah, all the big bike companies should sack their engineers and not come out with anything new since it all works good enough. No one needs anything to work better than it does now. In fact they should sack their entire staff and weld bikes in a shed, greedy bastards, how dare they want to make money and employ people! :thumbup:






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Last edited by MoPho on Mon Sep 12, 2016 1:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

MoPho
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by MoPho

Calnago wrote:Roadies resistant to change? That's a pretty big generalization which I don't think is necessarily true at all. In fact, it would seem just the opposite if you look at how quickly they are to adopt whatever fashion trend pops out of nowhere. It's kind of embarrassing actually. And funny all at the same time. I've got nothing against discs... if someone wants them on their road bike, fine. I don't, and know many others who don't as well. I've tried discs and was evalutating and riding some disc braked bikes when I ultimately decided on a rim braked Trek Emonda instead. It just suited my needs better and the discs were nothing special in my mind... kind of meh. Had they been "Wow, these are a game changer", I might have made a different decision. Clipless pedals were a game changer. Shifting in the levers was a game changer. Discs on road bikes.... meh. But of course because I haven't jumped on the latest trend I suppose I will be called a Retrogrouch or something. Fine with me. I know what I like.




Hilarious considering every time there is a discussion of disc brakes you have to chime in with generalizations while telling everyone how much they are not needed and how you think they are just "meh" :roll:


It's the constant whining about disc brakes that makes you a "retrogrouch", no one cares if you don't jump on the latest trend


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tabmaster
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by tabmaster

MoPho wrote:Yeah, all the big bike companies should sack their engineers and not come out with anything new since it all works good enough. No one needs anything to work better than it does now. In fact they should sack their entire staff and weld bikes in a shed, greedy bastards, how dare they want to make money and employ people! :thumbup:






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Brilliantly taken out of context! Congratulations!!! :thumbup:
Granted, nobody would want to be racing a bike made in 1950 (unless you count l'eroica) and hell, I love my up to the minute kit. I wouldn't be without it. However, there is a difference between incremental improvement, which happens in all industries, and attempting to pull off what is nothing short of a scam. They already make money & plenty of it. They aren't going to go bust if we aren't all forced to change and there will still be jobs for the manufacturers.
If the grand tours are like classical music, kermesse racing is punkrock, Belgian style.
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Calnago
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by Calnago

@Mopho: Regarding my "generalizations", I think I've made my points very clear and detailed and won't bother recounting them again for you. But if there were no dissenters' voices being heard, it would be so much easier for manufacturers to sneak a fast one by when no one's really paying attention, like pressfit bottom brackets. Like I said, there's an easy solution right in front of the manufacturers noses in simply providing two front ends to choose from... disc or rim, your call. But that's not nearly as enticing an option to the manufacturers as the all or nothing approach.
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Dez33
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by Dez33

MoPho wrote:I've never bought anything based on whether a pro uses it ....


Similar to me, but we are in the minority.

Road bike sales and new product uptake is pretty much directly linked to its use in pro-cycling, that's why the bike manufacturers are desperate to get disc brakes back in pro-cycling so they can make $$$.

Problem (for the manufacturers) is pro's don't need them or want them.

I don't think anyone is arguing against bike companies introducing disc models, just don't force them into racing when they aren't needed or wanted.

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tabmaster
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by tabmaster

Dez33 wrote:
MoPho wrote:I've never bought anything based on whether a pro uses it ....


Similar to me, but we are in the minority.

Road bike sales and new product uptake is pretty much directly linked to its use in pro-cycling, that's why the bike manufacturers are desperate to get disc brakes back in pro-cycling so they can make $$$.

Problem (for the manufacturers) is pro's don't need them or want them.

I don't think anyone is arguing against bike companies introducing disc models, just don't force them into racing when they aren't needed or wanted.


Yes, quite. I've no problem with anyone riding whatever they choose. My issue is with the manufacturers trying to foist discs on all & sundry (for racing), like it or not.
If the grand tours are like classical music, kermesse racing is punkrock, Belgian style.
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saibot
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by saibot

Calnago wrote:I've got nothing against discs


Hahaha Always got to get some comedy in there!


Bring on the discs!

MoPho
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by MoPho

tabmaster wrote:
Brilliantly taken out of context! Congratulations!!! :thumbup:
Granted, nobody would want to be racing a bike made in 1950 (unless you count l'eroica) and hell, I love my up to the minute kit. I wouldn't be without it. However, there is a difference between incremental improvement, which happens in all industries, and attempting to pull off what is nothing short of a scam. They already make money & plenty of it. They aren't going to go bust if we aren't all forced to change and there will still be jobs for the manufacturers.



LOL, Scam?! Do you have evidence of this scam or is that just your opinion? I am sure every engineer is proud to grow up to become scam artists.

My wife works for a very big camera company that has been falling behind in coming out with new tech, and they are very much in trouble and have had to lay people off, etc. so yeah, it is innovate or die in such businesses.

Everyone I know who bought a disc bike, including myself has been raving about disc, seems like innovation to me. But hey guess what, no one is forcing you to buy anything. I rode my DeRosa for 18 years, no one forced me to buy something new, it was my choice.


Calnago wrote:@Mopho: Regarding my "generalizations", I think I've made my points very clear and detailed and won't bother recounting them again for you. But if there were no dissenters' voices being heard, it would be so much easier for manufacturers to sneak a fast one by when no one's really paying attention, like pressfit bottom brackets. Like I said, there's an easy solution right in front of the manufacturers noses in simply providing two front ends to choose from... disc or rim, your call. But that's not nearly as enticing an option to the manufacturers as the all or nothing approach.


Your post above regarding people buying what the pros use is a generalization. Your "facts" regularly get rebutted, but then you come back with these same "facts". If you truly "got nothing against discs" and don't care if people buy disc then all you had to say is that you didn't want them, no need to try and prove to everyone how bad they are in every discussion.
What you are on about is more conspiracy theory than dissenting.



Dez33 wrote:Similar to me, but we are in the minority.


I don't agree, particularly in the US where there is not a lot of coverage of racing.


Road bike sales and new product uptake is pretty much directly linked to its use in pro-cycling, that's why the bike manufacturers are desperate to get disc brakes back in pro-cycling so they can make $$$.


Racing is more about branding the company than selling particular bikes. Of course there are some sales from it, but questionable how much. And as I understand it disc brake sales are pretty good without them being allowed in racing.
It would also make sense that they want disc in racing so they don't have to design and build bikes both ways.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

I'm happy for you @MoPho... but it is you who gets upset when someone says they don't want or need discs. And of course me saying that "people want to buy what the pros ride" is a generalization. And "generally speaking", that's in fact how it works in real life. If it didn't then the manufacturers and marketers wouldn't even care if discs are used in the pro peloton or not. But it does matter, a lot, and that's why the manufacturers are pushing so hard to get them in the pro peloton, even though the pros have expressed no collective interest in adopting them. So yeah, in conclusion... meh.
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MoPho
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by MoPho

Calnago wrote:I'm happy for you @MoPho... but it is you who gets upset when someone says they don't want or need discs. And of course me saying that people want to buy what the pros ride is a generalization. And "generally speaking", that's in fact how it works in real life. If it didn't then the manufacturers and marketers wouldn't even care if discs are used in the pro peloton or not. But it does matter, a lot, and that's why the manufacturers are pushing so hard to get them in the pro peloton, even though the pros have expressed no collective interest in adopting them. So yeah, in conclusion... meh.


I don't care if someone doesn't want or need disc, nor am I telling anyone they should buy them. What is irritating is when people like you make silly and unfounded arguments and keep doing it over and over despite being shown how absurd it is.

And of course me saying that people want to buy what the pros ride is a generalization. And "generally speaking", that's in fact how it works in real life.


And I noted it because you knocked someone else's argument for being a generalization.


And as I just pointed out, the companies don't want to build the bikes both ways and the UCI insists that they race what is sold to the public, so of course they pushing for it.
You could even say it is the UCI who is forcing it on racers because I am sure the bike companies would love to be making special bikes for pro racing

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Real question: Why don't the companies want to build the bikes both ways? They certainly could and it would be very easy to do. What I proposed as a hydraulic rim brake at the back and an optional disk or rim fork up front at the buyers choosing would be super simple. Like making frames electric or mechanical compatible.

And you've got the chicken and egg backwards when it comes to UCI and manufacturers. It's easy for companies to have a few rim brakes bikes around to fulfill that requirement if they choose to. Trouble is, that's not selling discs now, is it? Because, back to the very true marketing "generalization", people want to buy what the pros use. You don't seem to be getting that. And that, and that alone, is why the manufacturers want discs in the pro peloton. So they can sell these things and cover their costs of developing them over the last however many years they've been planning it. Nighty nite.
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