Campagnolo Rear Derailleur Issue

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lynton
Posts: 16
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 12:55 pm

by lynton

Yes it does, wonder if a Potenza RD and 11-32 cassette will work with your existing Athena shifters as that would be the easiest solution.

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TomColnago
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Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2015 4:05 pm

by TomColnago

I noticed a small twist in my record 2015 rear derailleur and as an experiment I backed off the lower jockey wheel a touch and it seemed to more or less straighten up but my twist wasn't that bad.

graeme_f_k
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by graeme_f_k

lynton wrote:Yes it does, wonder if a Potenza RD and 11-32 cassette will work with your existing Athena shifters as that would be the easiest solution.


Potenza is based in 2015 -> "Rev +" or "Embrace" type RD geometry so it won't work with the Athena levers - the cable recovery / derailleur movement ratio is wrong for Embrace-type RDs in those levers.

Even if you "doctor" the spring tensions in an Athena RD and have a long hanger, the shifting, especially in the middle of the cassette will be very poor with an 11-32 cassette - the issue is that the gear capacity in terms of maximum sprocket size is defined by how the path that the top jockey wheel describes as you come up the cassette towards the higher (harder) gears follows, or does not follow, the shape of the cassette ... if you space, by whatever means, the top jockey away from a bigger-than-designed-for bottom sprocket, by the time the RD gets down towards the 17, 16, 15 part of the world, there will be too much gap (for which read "free and therefore flexible chain) for the RD to function accurately. This effect will improve very slightly towards the "small" end of the cassette - the 11, 12, 13 but as you will be wrapping the chain around less teeth than the design calls for, and the top jockey will still be divergent away from the position the shift system needs, the shifting will still be ropey.

Your best bet in this circumstance would be a Potenza medium cage RD and Potenza levers, with the new Potenza FD - because with the 32 at the rear, you'll also have an issue with the physical depth over which the FD is designed to function - big to big will scrape on the inside-top cage linkage of the FD.
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
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Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!

graeme_f_k
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by graeme_f_k

TomColnago wrote:I noticed a small twist in my record 2015 rear derailleur and as an experiment I backed off the lower jockey wheel a touch and it seemed to more or less straighten up but my twist wasn't that bad.


All Campag 11s RDs have a small twist in the RD cage - it's designed in ... and has been since 2009. The cage used on 2015 RDs is exactly the same cage as has been used since 2009, made from the same materials on the same production line as the cages being used in the still-manufactured 2009-2014 Chorus, Record and Super Record RDs.

The low-incidence issue that we have seen in very many cases can be traced to poor rear hanger alignment (a good many mechanics forget that the hanger must be co-planar with, not just parallel in the vertical plane relative to the cassette) or, in at least two cases we have seen so far, the drilling / threading of the top pivot bolt location in the hanger being slightly off perpendicular to the hanger surface.

A very, very small number of cases where we can't attribute the problem to any of these causes are being checked out both at the factory and at the Service Centre level by Campagnolo, or, as in our case, by a contractor to Campagnolo. Again (and I've said it before ...) without the material, though, the SCs can't report to the factory and the factory can't address the issue, if there is some problem in production, be it in manufacturing or assembly. If you think you have a problem, speak in the 1st instance with your retailer ... preferably, where there is one local to you, a Campagnolo ProShop where the staff have up to date technical training and access to the SC direct.

If you can't gain resolution via your retailer, then do as others have done and contact your SC directly but bear in mind, the SCs are not designed to be consumer-facing - we all have high workloads that relate not just to service and warranty-based issues but also to Tech-Ed and other related areas, for instance - so there are times when we will need time to respond - this is the reason that the retailer network is your friend ...
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC
Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!

poppiholla
Posts: 597
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:18 pm

by poppiholla

I am pleased that I found this thread because I recognise the issues with the Campa Record 2015 rear derailleur. I thought it was a problem with my bike and campa groupset combination but more people have this issue with the rear derailleur. I bought this groupset as soon as it was available in the Netherlands. I have one of the first 2015 Record groupsets that arrived in the Netherlands for consumers. It is installed on my Tarmac S-works Sl4. From the beginning I thought that the new groupset was running loud and raw. I also ride a Dogma 65.1 with Record 2014 groupset and that runs almost silent. So I noticed the loud and raw operation of the 2015 Record groupset directly when I compared the two groupsets. It annoyed me because I could not find the problem.
I changed the chain and cassette but that did not fix it. The groupset runs a bit loud. I also wondered if the Record 2015 groupset did not like crosschaining as much as my old Sram Red 22 groupset. Although the cage of the front derailleur did not touch the chain in any way.
I also saw that the rear derailleur cage is slightly bend to the wheel. I changed the derailleur hanger of my Tarmac. I also changed cables and ferruls. I do not use Specialized California cable setup. I used to do this with Sram Red with no problems.
Overall the shifting of the Campa Record 2015 groupset is improved. It is ok for now. The shifters and front derailleur are a big step up from the 2014 groupset but the 2015 groupset still runs a bit loud and doesn't like cross chaining. Maybe the Chainrings are the "problem".
Maybe I will try a Chorus rear derailleur, but I am also thinking about Sram Etap, so maybe I will leave it this way and keep using Campa Record 2014 groupset on my Dogma 65.1.
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Greetings from the Netherlands

timmbo
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:42 pm

by timmbo

Resurrecting this thread, as I am having the same (albeit not as severe) issue with my 2015 Chorus rear derailleur. The chain "walks" off the lower jockey wheel, but does ultimately jump back on. This causes a bit of noise when pedalling.

People only seem to have reported this on SR derailleurs - is this also a known issue with Chorus?

Vagabond
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Location: Washington State and the Colorado Front Range.

by Vagabond

I just found this thread as well. I've found it's only really a problem when I adjust the new screw they put on the mech to position the upper pulley closer to the cassette for faster shifing. I backed that screw all the way out and my alignment is good. I may eventually adjust the screw in to bring it closer since I'm pretty good at being aware of chainline and keeping it straight so being cross chained isn't a problem for me and the only time it wants to misalign with the pulley wheel is when extremely cross chained. Even with the screw backed out the shifting is still plenty fast and precise. I'm going to put a couple of years of riding into mine and then swap it out for a new one. I'm sure Campy will have any issue that exists sorted out by then. Do you folks also find that even when tightened in all the way that the upper pulley won't position to the 7mm recommended distance when using a compact plus a 27 or greater casette? I'm loving the new front derailleur but a little irritated mine didn't come with the other washer to position the cable more inboard. In the end, this problem is the result of more gear choices which is all right by me. Calnago, as you are a Campy guru, I just sent you a pm about this. Sorry, I'll do a search first next time.

:beerchug:
Colnago e Campagnolo

timmbo
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by timmbo

Vagabond wrote: I'm loving the new front derailleur but a little irritated mine didn't come with the other washer to position the cable more inboard.


Urgh, me too. Spending £5.99 (including postage) on a washer is a bit galling.

I went in to a Pro Shop today who confirmed that this is indeed an issue with Chorus mechs as well. I have contacted the retailer I bought it from (Ribble), and would hope to receive a refund/exchange. Unfortunately, this issue only becomes apparent after fitting and testing the mech, which has already caused some wear on the inside face of the jockey wheel cage (which also suggests some misalignment) - I would expect this not to be an issue for the retailer...

Vagabond
Posts: 367
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Location: Washington State and the Colorado Front Range.

by Vagabond

I just ordered a couple from my Colnago shop. I can hardly wait to cast of the mooring lines and take my Saronni 59 out on its maiden voyage.
Colnago e Campagnolo

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Calnago
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by Calnago

@Vagabond: You should not need that washer on your C59. Is that what you're putting it on? Anwyay... PM sent in response to yours.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
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Calnago
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by Calnago

I hope to update this thread during my next build as I will be thoroughly testing a couple of hypothesis as to what is going on here. Trouble is, in the vast majority of cases where something "isn't working right" the issue can usually be traced to setup. But with the internet often when one person posts something and cries foul at the manufacturer then everyone who's stuff doesn't seem to work right thinks theirs is problematic as well.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

timmbo
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:42 pm

by timmbo

Aside from hanger alignment, what else other than a manufacturing issue with the RD could cause this issue?

The RD shifts well up and down the cassette, but it is noisy in the smaller cogs because of the chain walking off the pulley wheel, and then "jumping" back on. I tried all manner of other adjustments, both with the rear and front derailleurs ( to check alignment), but I can't think what else could be having an effect?

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Calnago
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by Calnago

@timmbo: What you describe definitely seems to be the issue I was initially raising in this thread. Tell me, what frame are you using it with, and are you using it with a campy chain, front rings with proper chainline etc? Also, does the chain want to "walk off" the lower pulley most when it is crossed (small/small) or does it happen across the entire cassette?

Assuming you've got a campy chain along with it, and the derailleur hanger is aligned, and you've got it dialed in setup wise, then it could be due to some really short chainstays. But for a moment let's assume everything is good. How adept are you at the mechanical aspects of pulling your rear derailleur apart? Specifically, can you remove and replace your derailleur cage ok? Have you ever tried that? I would suggest you do, or have someone that knows how to do it do it for you, then reassemble and retry it. I have a theory that it may be nothing more than a slightly improperly assembled cage. Or, I would try to get Campy to warranty it if you don't want to deal with that. I had two derailleurs that exhibited the same thing. One I sent back as complete unit for them to inspect. The second I studied in so much detail to the point I was convinced it had something to do with the cage assembly but couldn't quite pinpoint the exact cause. To test, I took a cage off a 2014 SR derailleur and replaced the cage on the "faulty" 2015 SR derailleur with that. And it worked fine. At that point I became convinced that it was the cage, so I just ordered a Chorus cage and installed that and it's been good ever since (I got the Chorus cage rather than a new SR cage simply because it is much stiffer). But what I didn't really know, and want to determine, is if it was the actual cage that was the problem, or if it was how it was initially assembled at the factory that made it slightly misaligned. If it's off, I had a heck of a time telling and I had both cages side by side, on flat tops etc.
When I do my next build, I will build it with a brand new derailleur, then test it out to make sure it works. Then I will disassemble it and install the cage that was on the derailleur that wasn't working until I replaced the cage (yes, I kept it just for this test). If it doesn't work properly, then I'll know it was the cage itself and it is just slightly off. But if it does work, then that would tell me that something was amiss in the initial assembly of the derailleur. Make sense?

Anyway, what you are describing does not sound like a setup issue to me and more like exactly the problem I'm describing in this thread. Let me know, either here or in PM, what you figure out with yours.
Thanks.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

timmbo
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by timmbo

Calnago wrote:Tell me, what frame are you using it with

custom made Reynolds 931 frame. Hanger alignment has been checked/verified.

Calnago wrote:and are you using it with a campy chain, front rings with proper chainline etc?


front rings and proper chainline yes - I'm using a KMC X11SL Chain

Calnago wrote:does the chain want to "walk off" the lower pulley most when it is crossed (small/small)


small/small and also large chain ring/smallest 3 sprockets

I haven't disassembled a RD before. I have ordered a replacement Chorus RD, which I'll try out tonight. If this is still at fault, I'll have to take it to the local pro shop. I'll keep my post updated.

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timmbo
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Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:42 pm

by timmbo

Local Campy pro shop (Condor Cycles in London) obviously has a lot more rigour/scrutiny than the LBS. They checked the hanger alignment and adjusted it even further - problem solved! Chain is running perfectly along the jockey wheels now.

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