Colnago C60 Traditional vs Slooping vs Pinarello Dogma F8

[kgt]

Sure... not everyone can evaluate a great bike. Some people cannot even discern junk food from haute cuisine.

[LionelB]

A club mate of mine spent 8 grand on a real F8 and another spent £400 quid on a copy, both agree that they are indistinguishable from each other in the way they ride and the paint jobs being very comparable.

Everything that Pinarello claim regarding streamlineing and aerodynamic drag etc, is just nonsensical marketing, the only reason Sky use them is because of the UCI weight limit, if it were dropped to 6kg, Sky would ditch the F8 in a heartbeat

[micro553]

Same here alot of questions

C60 48S or Trad 53 - I´m sitting on 70,6 cm

Then the other things:
Disc version NON Disc
Di2 vs Regular
Campa vs Shimano

It would have not been a problem if I didn´t have a buget.

Maybe - Go Disc and non Di2 to start. Non disc frame can not be made Disc BUT non DI can be made DI2.

Or just go a cheaper lighter good bike - like SuperSix Evo Hi-mod

Hard.

As for now I´m thinking 53 Trad RSBK with Disc and Ultegra or NON Disc with Chorus ESP

for 48s vs 53 trad i can not answer u at the moment, dont have opinion

About others i'll tell my opinion:

Disc vs Non Disc - For me Disc and Road Bike BIG NO. More maintance (on my MTB i should replace the brake pads and oil at least 3 times per year, sometimes more often, Magura Marta SL brakes), more weight... Maybe there is small point if u ride a Carbon Fibre wheelset, and a lot of steep downhills, and u are afraid of overheating of the carbon wheels and destroyng them with that.

Di2 vs Regular - Also tried few times Di2 (and EPS from Campy), vs Regular.. I choose for my self Regular version.. Cheaper, lighter, less points for failure (even if failure happened on the road, it can be fixex), simpler...

Campy vs Shimano: I prefer Campy (and i ride in this moment Veloce. New Record is still in the box, waiting for a new frame). And somehow for me Italian Frame with Italian Groupset.. Also i prefer ergonomics of Campagnolo (i dont like side play on Shimano Brake levers going downhill, but maybe im biased on Campy since i use this Veloce for 4 -5 years).

But, when i tried Shimani Di2 vs Campy EPS, must admit that on Shimano it was working smoother, and brakers were better (maybe the wheels changed this as well, because i tried SHimano With Fast Forward Wheels, and Campy EPS with Bora Ultra 35)


So for me, NonDisc, Campy Mechanical

Interesting .....

Shifting

I´ve tried DA Di2 and it worked great but in this case I can´t afford DA Di2 so no Point thinking about it.

So for me it´s between
Full Campa Chous
Full Ultegra

Ultegra Di2 (will put on parts I have like crank cassette chain) - Ultegra di2 is alot more weight aswell as a higher cost.

I agree Italian frame Italian groupset BUT

I already have
Crankset - Rotor 3D+ with TUNE Chainrings
New Ultegra Cassette
New DA chain

But I can sell the parts and go full Campa Chous (must say I liked the looks of the old one with 5-arms)

Campa and Rotor crank is a no no I Think.


DISC non disc

Disc is more expensive
Disc is more Heavy
Disc are not as good looking I mean on the bike
Disc are less aero
Disc are nice for more acurate stopping (I have it today)
Disc Wheels look better I Think

Braking regular brakes is Ultegra and Chous the same performence?

If i plan ahead and will sell the bike in 4 years - will someone want NON disc then?!?

Hard........

[DrJeffers]

Okay, some thoughts, as i may have a useful persepctive for you - I also have a Pinarello FP3 in the same size as you - it's my old best bike, and i've done many thousands of km on it - its now my back up training/sportive bike now. I bought a C60 last year, and after a professional fit, i was recommended a 48S - which is what i went for. It's a perfect fit and i interchange comfortably with the C60. However, i have a shorter stem on the Pinarello to obtain the same fit (95cm vs 110 cm). So the reach of the FP3 is slightly longer, and probably towards the top end of my comfortable range - the 48S Colnago is more in the middle of my range. So if you are currently riding a 53 Pinarello, do get yourself fitted carefully as you may find either 48S or 50S is better for you for the Colnago, depending how 'right' the 53 Pinarello already is for you.

Other thoughts - I can't compare with the Dogma, but the Colnago is definitely more comfortable than the FP3 for longer rides using the same wheel-set, and I expect the FP3 is more comfortable than the stiffer F8 Dogma. I can happily use alu spoked wheels on the Colnago (Shamal) but these are bone-jarringly harsh on the Pinarello. So there will undoubtedly be a SIGNIFICANT difference in ride comfort over long distances if you go with the Dogma, and that seems to chime with the views in a magazine shootout of the C60/Dogma F8 i saw a while back (cant recall where). I have done multiple 170+km rides on both bikes, and my butt would choose the Colnago every time, even with the more aggressive saddle I've put on it. If that's important to you, weigh up your options carefully. The Colnago is a much less fatiguing ride and it's also more 'planted' on the descents.

Sloping vs traditional: some people can't get past the traditional look, but i'm not one of them. As you know, the FP3 is more of a traditional geometry, and i like that too, but there is no doubt the Colnago sloping frames are both subtle and look 'right' with a wider range of saddle heights. There is no problem getting oversize bidons into the cages on the smaller sloping frames (see photo below). I think the larger traditional C60 frames look good, but the small ones actually look a bit weird and ungainly. The 48S just looks 'right' to me.

In terms of ability to climb, i can only offer you the following photo. I started this ride at sea level (in a harbour). Was it anything other than lovely to climb on? Nope. And every time you look down, you have a C60 between your legs. If that objectively cost me a minute of climb time over 2450m, i'll take that.

Hope that helps some. Happy hunting!

[LionelB]

I am surprised that you guys find the C60 better at descending than the Pinarello. My F8 is the best descending bike I ever had by quite a margin (this includes 3 Colnago). But I ride a large frame.

[micro553]

Can´t see the Picture.

[DrJeffers]

Hmm, having some dropbox trouble - working on it!

[3Pio]

I am surprised that you guys find the C60 better at descending than the Pinarello. My F8 is the best descending bike I ever had by quite a margin (this includes 3 Colnago). But I ride a large frame.

I ride Pinarello Fp3 for 5 years, and i tried Dogma F8 for 40 km. I feel the same nervous feeling on Fp3 and on Dogma, and i guess is based on Geometry. C60 were much much better for downhill, and i feeled very stable and secure compared to my Fp3 and Dogma i tried.

Maybe this confidence feeling was also based that C60 were 48s (smaller, and easier to control), but i still think is more based on geometry

[DrJeffers]

Okay, photo now there but massive! Sorry, best i can do at the moment!

[3Pio]

Okay, some thoughts, as i may have a useful persepctive for you - I also have a Pinarello FP3 in the same size as you - it's my old best bike, and i've done many thousands of km on it - its now my back up training/sportive bike now. I bought a C60 last year, and after a professional fit, i was recommended a 48S - which is what i went for. It's a perfect fit and i interchange comfortably with the C60. However, i have a shorter stem on the Pinarello to obtain the same fit (95cm vs 110 cm). So the reach of the FP3 is slightly longer, and probably towards the top end of my comfortable range - the 48S Colnago is more in the middle of my range. So if you are currently riding a 53 Pinarello, do get yourself fitted carefully as you may find either 48S or 50S is better for you for the Colnago, depending how 'right' the 53 Pinarello already is for you.

Seem that u are the guy im looking for What kind of wheelset u had on ur Fp3? When i switched to SHamal Ultra, Fp3 become like rocket.. I couldnt believe how big difference this made, specialy for climbing.Im using Continental Attack/Force Tires (22mm in front, 24mm in rear), with Vittoria Latex Tubes (which offer very smooth and comfortable feeling, but still very responsive).

Did u ever tried FP3 and C60 with same wheelset? How u compare each other in responsivness and stifness? Which climb better? Which u feel like faster bike? Which one is better for sprinting? Which one make u wanting to push pedals harder?

I tried 48S, and its too small for me, specialy that even Fp3 im riding with saddle almost all the way back becouse of my long femurs, and also i prefer to build a bike around 110 or 120mm stem. After a lot of playing with my Fp3, im most comfortable with 110mm stem in this moment (i tried 100mm, but have neck pain, becouse i was crumped), so for me it would 50S or 55 trad with 110mm or 120mm stems.

Other thoughts - I can't compare with the Dogma, but the Colnago is definitely more comfortable than the FP3 for longer rides using the same wheel-set, and I expect the FP3 is more comfortable than the stiffer F8 Dogma. I can happily use alu spoked wheels on the Colnago (Shamal) but these are bone-jarringly harsh on the Pinarello. So there will undoubtedly be a SIGNIFICANT difference in ride comfort over long distances if you go with the Dogma, and that seems to chime with the views in a magazine shootout of the C60/Dogma F8 i saw a while back (cant recall where). I have done multiple 170+km rides on both bikes, and my butt would choose the Colnago every time, even with the more aggressive saddle I've put on it. If that's important to you, weigh up your options carefully. The Colnago is a much less fatiguing ride and it's also more 'planted' on the descents.

The biggest ride at once i done with Fp3 is 204km in about 8 hours (9-10 hours total with some coffee on the way), and i feel comforable enough to go on Concert after that . I done that with old wheelset (Most, which are heavy, and i i dont like the feeling that they provide), and the max length i rode with Shamals on Fp3 (Conti Attack/Force, and Vittoria Latex, about 130 km since i have this wheelset just few months). And i like the feeling that they provide.. It's on a harsh side, but not uncomfortable (at least how i feel them).I would say that with Shamals its in the right spot.. Comfy Enogh, but also resposnive enough

I understund that C60 is very comfortable bike, but i dont want to loose responsivness, speed and climbing performance just for a comfort.

So please answer my question i asked before in this message about comparation between Fp3 and C60, using the same Wheelset (i hope that would be Shamals )

Sloping vs traditional: some people can't get past the traditional look, but i'm not one of them. As you know, the FP3 is more of a traditional geometry, and i like that too, but there is no doubt the Colnago sloping frames are both subtle and look 'right' with a wider range of saddle heights. There is no problem getting oversize bidons into the cages on the smaller sloping frames (see photo below). I think the larger traditional C60 frames look good, but the small ones actually look a bit weird and ungainly. The 48S just looks 'right' to me.

On the look i prefer Traditional. But i asked few different shops and also on Colnago Official Mail, and they all said that traditional is flexier, and that i would definitly notice on climb. I want to pick one that would be more responsive and stiffer, and that would fit me properly like most important. I understund that claim i got that Trad is flexier then Sloping is maybe just part of marketing and not true, and trying to figure out that

In terms of ability to climb, i can only offer you the following photo. I started this ride at sea level (in a harbour). Was it anything other than lovely to climb on? Nope. And every time you look down, you have a C60 between your legs. If that objectively cost me a minute of climb time over 2450m, i'll take that.

Im afraid i did not understund this. This mean u like how C60 climbing or it's not good part of C60?

Thanks

[3Pio]

A club mate of mine spent 8 grand on a real F8 and another spent £400 quid on a copy, both agree that they are indistinguishable from each other in the way they ride and the paint jobs being very comparable.

Everything that Pinarello claim regarding streamlineing and aerodynamic drag etc, is just nonsensical marketing, the only reason Sky use them is because of the UCI weight limit, if it were dropped to 6kg, Sky would ditch the F8 in a heartbeat

\

I totaly Agree that Aerodynamic drag is Marketing, and i really dont care about Aero things (i triend once Specialized Venge, and it was one of the worst bikes i ever tried.. I feel with Venge, like bike is arguing with me all the time, and with no Soul at all).

But i care about stifness and responsivness in combination with comfort

[DrJeffers]

Yes, I've tried the Shamals on both bikes, and i much prefer them on the C60 in terms of ride quality, although they perform just as well on the FP3. I also run the C60 with 23mm tyres, but the FP3 with 25mm due to the harsher ride. The ride quality of the C60 with narrower tyres and stiffer wheels (Shamal vs Zonda) is still smoother than the FP3!

That said, it's as stiff and responsive as you could want. I am no sprinter, so I can't compare how they feel under a sprint scenario, but I think unless you are a serious athlete, you will be hard pushed to find anything to criticise with the C60's performance. It is worth noting that over long rides, comfort is actually important for speed! You can't put in your best performance if the bike has shaken you to death and everything hurts for the last couple of hours!

The C60 doesn't have the sensation of outrageous speed that overly stiff and more aggressive frames have - it just seems to get the job done efficiently and without any fuss. Many people have commented that it doesn't seem that fast when you are riding it but then the ride times say otherwise. In terms of climbing - sorry, my comment lost in translation - I meant it is a joy to climb! It might be heavier than other frames, but the way the frame responds and handles seems to make the weight issue somewhat unimportant. And once you reach the top, i'd rather be descending on this frame (with Shamal mille braking!) than any other.

I really don't have a bad thing to say about it, its a wonderful bike. That said, I still love my FP3 - it was the bike that took me from a wheezing fat guy to borderline athletic, and I still ride it a lot. I have an aluminium Bianchi that i use in the winter/really bad weather, but i'm always looking to take the Pinarello out instead if it won't mean too much cleaning afterwards! In fact i am overhauling it at the moment. BB and headset bearings changed out, a dis-assemble and deep clean of everything and now waiting on fresh cables, bar tape and new conti tyres. So in a few days it will be in the best condition it's been in since it left the shop in 2009, except for a little paint here and there!

[micro553]

Disc vs non disc.

I´ve read that Campa works with some disc brakes and when I try to build the bike wrench science it get pretty light even with something like Zipp 30 disc wheel set.

If I go disc but Campa AND then Campa make own hydraulic disc brakes I prob need a "update kit" - right?

I like Campa (just looks I have not tried them)
I like disc but not the extra weight and I think shimano don´t look as good as campa on a C60.

What do u guys think of this
C60 Italia RSBK Trad 53 DISC
Campa Chous (maybe ESP depends on price)
Some disc brakes - Can I even go hydraulic? If not is it worth doing or just go rim brake?
Wheels to start with something like NoTubes Grail, or Pancenti SL25 with DT350´s
Enve Kit
Romin PRO saddle
Vittoria Corsa Speed

I nuess I will be under 7 kg?

The pro is that I get a more future proof frame with disc brakes. And with Campa Chous I get a good looking groupset thats okej light.

[DrJeffers]

No useful views here on disc vs non-disc, but i doubt very much your suggested build would be under 7 kg. Mine is 7.1kg, smallish frame size (48s) without too much paint on it (mostly gloss coat over raw carbon!) with Campag Record and Shamal Mille wheels, carbon bars etc. You'd need top-end tubular wheels and groupset to get into the sub-7kg category, and disc stuff i imagine isn't on a par in weight terms currently.

[3Pio]

Disc vs non disc.

I´ve read that Campa works with some disc brakes and when I try to build the bike wrench science it get pretty light even with something like Zipp 30 disc wheel set.

If I go disc but Campa AND then Campa make own hydraulic disc brakes I prob need a "update kit" - right?

I like Campa (just looks I have not tried them)
I like disc but not the extra weight and I think shimano don´t look as good as campa on a C60.

What do u guys think of this
C60 Italia RSBK Trad 53 DISC
Campa Chous (maybe ESP depends on price)
Some disc brakes - Can I even go hydraulic? If not is it worth doing or just go rim brake?
Wheels to start with something like NoTubes Grail, or Pancenti SL25 with DT350´s
Enve Kit
Romin PRO saddle
Vittoria Corsa Speed

I nuess I will be under 7 kg?

The pro is that I get a more future proof frame with disc brakes. And with Campa Chous I get a good looking groupset thats okej light.

That Future Proof thig is marketing Weapon.. We always want to be future proof, and because of that we are not buying things we really like, then buying things that marketing part of the companies make us thinking that is right way.. In term of brakes.. If normal rims brake obviosly work for so many years on road bike, why shouldnt in the future, to dont be future proof? Light, almost maintence free, and working fine... The only thing as i said before to maybe think about disc brakes is if u want carbon tubular wheels with proper braking on steep downhill. But for that reason i picked Shamal Ultra and not Bora, so i dont worry about it as well..

About NoTubes, also i was avoding buying new wheelset, waiting for Tubeless more version of tires and system that actually work.. At the end, i bought the normal Shamal Ultra, and not 2Way Fit, because it works very good. Im using Vittoria Latex Tubes, and in 900 km NO FLATS AT ALL.

For me Road bike should be Simple, light and easely servicible if it's needed on the road.

Btw, because of that FUTURE proof, in the 2000, instead of buying Titanium Hardtail (which i guess would still riding), i bought Specialized Stumpjumper FSR XC 99, which even having the best system then, i replaced soon Suspension Shock (i upgraded to after market Risse Racing), because stock didnt work, i need to upgrade the link (because of a lot of play), and instedad of enjoying the ride, i was resolving the things.. Im still sorry that i didnt bought Titanium frame then. At least that bike had Shimano XTR V-Brake, which workded very well (with Kool Stop). Then in 2008 i bought Specialized Epic Full Suspension, and after 3 rd replacement of shock under warranty, finally working without problems. On that bike i have Magura Marta SL Discs, which i need to replace brake pads very often, and to have maintence with oil replacement, and i cant say that this brakes work much better then old Shimano XTR V-Brakes.

About Specialized Romin Saddle u are mentioning.I have use Specialized Romin Evo Pro Saddle for 2 years on my Pinarello.Look like comfortable and very good (i tried on demo day on Specialized Venge and i like it).. But, the problem with this saddle is that it's designed to keep u in one spot, which i dont like because i want to change position where i sit, depend of the terrain, and riding style. Now i have Selle Italia Carbonio Flow, which seem that i prefer more. It's too early to say, since i have it 2 weeks, and max distance i ride is like 40 km (climbing/downhill).

So i said after almost 2 years of reading reviews, forums etc, even i have a chance to pick what i want now (disc vs non disc for example, or mechanical vs esp), i decided to keep it simple, functional and light

Record Mechanical (Chorus is also very nice, if i didnt get nice price of Record, big possability that i'll end with Chorus)[quote="DrJeffers"]No useful views here on disc vs non-disc, but i doubt very much your suggested build would be under 7 kg. Mine is 7.1kg, smallish frame size (48s) without too much paint on it (mostly gloss coat over raw carbon!) with Campag Record and Shamal Mille wheels, carbon bars etc. You'd need top-end tubular wheels and groupset to get into the sub-7kg category, and disc stuff i imagine isn't on a par in weight terms currently.

Regular Version of Shamal with Latex Tubes (this really made difference)

And definitly NonDisc version.

Of course this is just my point of view, doesnt mean that u have to do it same, because we all have different valid arguments. I want to reply on this, because i have the same doubts as u , and this is what i decided.