CeramicSpeed - Overpriced?
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nathanong87
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coloclimber
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I have Ceramic Speed wheel bearings, bottom bracket bearings and pulleys.
The BB and wheel bearings are solid after several years of use using light grease for ceramic bearings. Not so with campagnolo cult, Mavic OEM and other non-OEM ceramic BB bearings in my experience.
The pulleys are loud and shift a lot worse than OEM and I would only reccomend them on a TT bike for a week before and A race day, then back to standard pulleys for training. I took pulleys off my road bike they were so annoying.
As for value, you can find the same or better watt savings from way less expensive options like Hawk Racing, but its up to you and your pocket book.
The BB and wheel bearings are solid after several years of use using light grease for ceramic bearings. Not so with campagnolo cult, Mavic OEM and other non-OEM ceramic BB bearings in my experience.
The pulleys are loud and shift a lot worse than OEM and I would only reccomend them on a TT bike for a week before and A race day, then back to standard pulleys for training. I took pulleys off my road bike they were so annoying.
As for value, you can find the same or better watt savings from way less expensive options like Hawk Racing, but its up to you and your pocket book.
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The funny thing is that the cost of 3D printing is coming down so fast that the cost of manufacturing probably dropped by 50% between the day they started the print run and the day of the first teaser/article on the net.wingguy wrote:Well, look at the cross section of the wheels in this link and explain how they could have made them any other way. Then, read the link and understand what those wheels actually are. They made 10 pairs. 10. They're not a product, they're a 'look what we can do' show off / R&D excercise - and if some rich collector wants to buy a pair that's a bonus, but it's not really the point. They even come in a presentation box, they're not meant to be put on a bike they're meant to be displayed!
It's probably dropped by another 50% since then.
There are many ‘limited’ products overpriced for their proposed value. Just look at the McLaren Specializeds. What additional value does that bike with an otherwise off-the-shelf frame sprayed in some signature orange paint by an automotive company after instructing on how to do some carbon layups? If McLaren made it in-house, that bike would've been a different story. I'm sure Specialized wouldn't want to charge more or lose some margin on it but hey, it's a buyer's market.
I've known Jacob, founder and owner of CeramicSpeed, for nearly a decade. He gave me their TDC coated bearings to test long before they became commercially available and I still find these the best on the market bar none. Whosoever purchases a CeramicSpeed product is sure to receive a top notch item from a reputable company with decades of experience. Surely that must count for something.
Strange when a brand is only judged by their rarest and most expensive item. Just because someone thinks it not worth paying for a premium product, doesn't mean their products are overpriced. It may be surprising that their bearings aren’t exclusively aimed at cycling applications, like being featured on a Tour de France winner's bike, but also in e.g. the food processing industry, another indication of the merits. And they don't save much weight, but they are far more durable than non-coated hybrid ceramic bearings. However, if you want the best bearings available, I only advise CeramicSpeed. They are my go-to bearing brand.
I'm familiar with titanium 3D printing technology since 8 years ago and I have a pretty good idea about the processes and the costs involved. I can state with a fair degree of certainty that, if CeramicSpeed were to decide to make their 3D-printed pulleys an off-the-shelf product, the retail price could be slashed in half. I agree, these are a bit ridiculous, but mostly due to their astronomical asking price of €800. Many people (even engineers) don't consider that, even when a product is printed and a lot of material is saved compared to CNC-ing from billet or bar stock, there is usually a lot of post-printing operations needed to finish a product.
CeramicSpeed was likely a bit too early in exploring an application for this technology by using for their halo product. Finding the right applications is essential for a technology to come to its right.
There is one CeramicSpeed product I'm quite interested in trying: their ceramic bearing headset. Also, I'm currently developing a crankset with 3D printed 6/4 titanium crank arms. When ready for production, I'll make sure to offer it with a CeramicSpeed BB, and I hope they continue to come out with products that make cycling just that bit more interesting.
I've known Jacob, founder and owner of CeramicSpeed, for nearly a decade. He gave me their TDC coated bearings to test long before they became commercially available and I still find these the best on the market bar none. Whosoever purchases a CeramicSpeed product is sure to receive a top notch item from a reputable company with decades of experience. Surely that must count for something.
Strange when a brand is only judged by their rarest and most expensive item. Just because someone thinks it not worth paying for a premium product, doesn't mean their products are overpriced. It may be surprising that their bearings aren’t exclusively aimed at cycling applications, like being featured on a Tour de France winner's bike, but also in e.g. the food processing industry, another indication of the merits. And they don't save much weight, but they are far more durable than non-coated hybrid ceramic bearings. However, if you want the best bearings available, I only advise CeramicSpeed. They are my go-to bearing brand.
I'm familiar with titanium 3D printing technology since 8 years ago and I have a pretty good idea about the processes and the costs involved. I can state with a fair degree of certainty that, if CeramicSpeed were to decide to make their 3D-printed pulleys an off-the-shelf product, the retail price could be slashed in half. I agree, these are a bit ridiculous, but mostly due to their astronomical asking price of €800. Many people (even engineers) don't consider that, even when a product is printed and a lot of material is saved compared to CNC-ing from billet or bar stock, there is usually a lot of post-printing operations needed to finish a product.
CeramicSpeed was likely a bit too early in exploring an application for this technology by using for their halo product. Finding the right applications is essential for a technology to come to its right.
There is one CeramicSpeed product I'm quite interested in trying: their ceramic bearing headset. Also, I'm currently developing a crankset with 3D printed 6/4 titanium crank arms. When ready for production, I'll make sure to offer it with a CeramicSpeed BB, and I hope they continue to come out with products that make cycling just that bit more interesting.
“I always find it amazing that a material can actually sell a product when it’s really the engineering that creates and dictates how well that material will behave or perform.” — Chuck Teixeira
Have there been any published studies that compare bearings after 5000km of road use? Once out in real world environments what are the actual gains to be had with ceramic bearings?
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iliedanila
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Maybe some day someone will come with the idea of 3D-printing a crank that doesn't weigh almost as much as the entire frame... Instead of saving 2 grams from the damn pulleys 
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I was vaguely involved in the periphery of a test program for ceramics, i've read the report. I can state quite categorically that it won't be published. Ever.ergott wrote:Have there been any published studies that compare bearings after 5000km of road use?
Pretty much bugger all. They are nice in environments where you can't use lubricants, or have very high risk of contamination, or need extremely low drag and high precision movement, or extreme high speed (where centripetal forces become an issue). Once you get them out of their comfort zone the benefits shrink massively, well below the point of experimental error in most cases.ergott wrote:Once out in real world environments what are the actual gains to be had with ceramic bearings?
The conclusion was (basically) use the best steel bearings you can get hold of, improve concentricity of components, improve stiffness (of the shafts and housings). All these give bigger benefits (and are cheaper) than moving to ceramic.
Do ceramic last. After you've exhausted all other possibilities.
The company that did the work still use high grade, custom made steel across the board.
Oh one thing I forgot that's a big one.
Bearing surface tolerances. If the bearing fit is too tight or too loose or the bores aren't perfectly concentric you throw all benefits out the window.
These tolerance are really hard to get right. It's the main reason bearings fail (especially when bores are too tight).
Bearing surface tolerances. If the bearing fit is too tight or too loose or the bores aren't perfectly concentric you throw all benefits out the window.
These tolerance are really hard to get right. It's the main reason bearings fail (especially when bores are too tight).
How is it that some brands nail this, decade after decade, and other brands don't seem to understand, be able to or just don't care as much? 
All that's needed is the right tooling and a proper way to roll the bearing surfaces of the hub shell and axles during manufacturing with a tolerance of about -0.01/0.02 mm for the ID and OD. It's barely adds manufacturing time and gives an excellent result: wheels where bearings spin smooth and seemingly endlessly, especially with low-friction (ceramic) bearings and a low viscosity oil lubricant. Another trick is to not anodize the bearing surfaces or given them an extra treatment afterwards.
Silicon nitride ball bearings are actually more elastic as well as harder, thus concentricity isn't so much an issue as it is with steel bearings. Then there's the matter of bearing preload, where elasticity also plays a vital role in durability. That's why I prefer hubs and BB's with bearing preload adjustment.
All that's needed is the right tooling and a proper way to roll the bearing surfaces of the hub shell and axles during manufacturing with a tolerance of about -0.01/0.02 mm for the ID and OD. It's barely adds manufacturing time and gives an excellent result: wheels where bearings spin smooth and seemingly endlessly, especially with low-friction (ceramic) bearings and a low viscosity oil lubricant. Another trick is to not anodize the bearing surfaces or given them an extra treatment afterwards.
Silicon nitride ball bearings are actually more elastic as well as harder, thus concentricity isn't so much an issue as it is with steel bearings. Then there's the matter of bearing preload, where elasticity also plays a vital role in durability. That's why I prefer hubs and BB's with bearing preload adjustment.
“I always find it amazing that a material can actually sell a product when it’s really the engineering that creates and dictates how well that material will behave or perform.” — Chuck Teixeira
Unfortunately anodized bore are the norm.
I'd still love to see a study proving the practical superiority of ceramic bearings over steel. 5000km, road and weather contamination etc. If they continue to outperform steel bearings in typical cycling applications/environments it should be real easy to prove.
I'd still love to see a study proving the practical superiority of ceramic bearings over steel. 5000km, road and weather contamination etc. If they continue to outperform steel bearings in typical cycling applications/environments it should be real easy to prove.
Bearing size and load capacity should also be incorporated in the comparison, as well as bearing placement.
“I always find it amazing that a material can actually sell a product when it’s really the engineering that creates and dictates how well that material will behave or perform.” — Chuck Teixeira
morrisond wrote:They do make great products and yes they are expensive.
They are having an issue with there webshop and are working on fixing it.
If you are from North America everything defaults to USD however they set these prices when the USD/Euro was at 1.4 not the current 1.1 (less than) and everything includes VAT which you don't have to pay if you are outside the EU.
I recently wanted to get some PF4130 BB Bearings from them and after a few emails was able to get the USD equivalent(at the current exchange rate) of the EURO price less VAT. It turned out to be about 44% less than the listed USD price on their website.
Nice people to work with.
I got the same BB and its perfect. when compared to another ceramic BB i had, CS is far far superior... my crankset spins so smooth...
Yeah, but if someone has the money and wants it then why not?
One of our regulars upgraded his whole drivetrain with CeramicSpeed - Full Mavic wheel and freehub bearings, BB, OS pulleys and cage. About £1000 worth of bearings. We almost tried to talk him out of it but he was totally sure that's what he wanted and you know what? When it was all installed the drivetrain was so damn free that you couldn't help smiling just spinning the cranks around. It was the same sort of 'wow' factor you get picking up a sub 6 kilo bike. We've put some of the UCB speedcages on for people who want to use a 32 cassette with DA and again there's a noticeable difference just handling the bike.
Regardless of what sort of watt saving that translates to when the bearings are actually under load, if the money doesn't matter that much and ceramic bearings make you love your bike more then why not go for it? Loads of people spend the same sort of cash on a bar/stem/seatpost upgrade without thinking twice - and I guarantee you'd notice the bearings more.
One of our regulars upgraded his whole drivetrain with CeramicSpeed - Full Mavic wheel and freehub bearings, BB, OS pulleys and cage. About £1000 worth of bearings. We almost tried to talk him out of it but he was totally sure that's what he wanted and you know what? When it was all installed the drivetrain was so damn free that you couldn't help smiling just spinning the cranks around. It was the same sort of 'wow' factor you get picking up a sub 6 kilo bike. We've put some of the UCB speedcages on for people who want to use a 32 cassette with DA and again there's a noticeable difference just handling the bike.
Regardless of what sort of watt saving that translates to when the bearings are actually under load, if the money doesn't matter that much and ceramic bearings make you love your bike more then why not go for it? Loads of people spend the same sort of cash on a bar/stem/seatpost upgrade without thinking twice - and I guarantee you'd notice the bearings more.
