BBinfinite experiences (with Campagnolo Ultra-Torque)?

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colster
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Location: West Yorkshire, UK

by colster

Hi all - I have been riding a Campagnolo Super Record Ultra Torque crankset installed with Campag's own BB86 press-fit cups in my De Rosa Super King for around 18 months. When I first got the bike after a few rides the BB began creaking horrendously, so the bike went back to the shop where the mechanic re-installed the cups with Loctite - and the creaking was solved!

However, I have never really felt that the crank spins as it should do, especially seeing as the bearings are ceramic. It spins only slightly better than the (well worn) Dura Ace 7900 crank I have on another bike, which is installed on an english threaded Ultegra BB with steel bearings.

I am considering installing a BBinfinite module in the hope that UT crank may spin more freely (have heard they reduce preload on radial contact bearings). I am particularly intrigued by the BBinfinite design as, while it primarily addresses alignment issues for press fit BB's, they also end up modifying Campag's Ultra-Torque design by dispensing with both the bearing retaining clip and the wavy washer during installation.

I am wondering what experiences others here may have had with BBinfinite Ultra-Torque installations - have they improved bearing performance, or are they only really a solution for removing creaking?
Is the removal of the wave washer and retaining clip an improvement on Campagnolo's design, or is it just different?
Are there any other unexpected issues folk have encountered along the way?

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bikerjulio
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by bikerjulio

I have experience with UT cranks, but not your situation otherwise.

I strongly suspect that any lack of spin you feel is either down to minor seal drag or misalignment. Nothing to do with retaining clip or wave washer.

That being said, the clip and washer are there to stop any side-to-side movement that can occur because of variations in BB shell width. In theory, if the distance between cups was perfect, then neither would be needed.

So, in theory, a precisely machined, pressed-in sleeve, would solve any alignment issue. Since you are not going to improve on Campy bearings, I'd keep them.

The BBinfinite sleeve seems pretty expensive. In your situation, I'd be inclined to try a reinstallation of the Campy cups first to see if the situation improves.

Just my thoughts. Perhaps someone with direct experience will chime in.

http://www.bbinfinite.com/products/bb86-directfit-campagnolo
There's sometimes a buggy.
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One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

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ghisallo2003
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by ghisallo2003

Is the spin test a meaningful proxy for what is happening under load?

AJS914
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by AJS914

It sounds like your crank is fine. I wouldn't touch it.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Your current issue is likely misalignment of the cups, very common. That Ultratorque SR crank should spin for "days" from just blowing on it if it's installed right. There are no seals in the SR crank bearings to cause any drag at all from seals. I've spoken with the guys at BB Infinite a few months back and they really wanted to send me one of their BB's to check it out. Because they control the exact width of their BB, and thus frame tolerances are not an issue, I can see how they can dispense with the retaining clip, and if they've got their tolerances down to thousandths of an inch, which they were quite sure they had, then I could "maybe" see them doing away with the wavy washer too. But it seemed that at the end of the day it wouldn't quite look as "clean" around the BB as properly inserted cups would. But I haven't actually seen it in practice. It would solve the alignment issue however.
That said, it IS possible to get the individual cups aligned and secure in the BB shell and then you'd have that nice spinning SR crank back.
And while the "spin test" may not be that critical for real life performance, in the case of a SR crank with Cult bearings it can certainly be a good indicator that something isn't quite perfect in the install if doesn't spin effortlessly. Other cranks would make it more difficult to tell simply because the bearings are packed with grease so they wouldn't be as sensitive to a slight misalignment in a simple "spin test". When the cups were installed do you know if they were installed with a proper press and bushings to ensure alignment and not just rely on hoping the faces of the BB shell are square with each other. Even if they were, putting them in separately without bushings in both cups and the press they could still be off kilter a little bit.
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Calnago
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by Calnago

Not sure if this clip will come through, but it gives an idea of how a Super Record crank should spin...
https://vimeo.com/156611137
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bikerjulio
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by bikerjulio

Just one tiny correction to this comment
There are no seals in the SR crank bearings to cause any drag at all from seals.
.

I was referring to the seals in the cups. Since the is no "SR" version of the BB86 cups as there is with threaded cups, I was assuming that they had seals.

Perhaps I'm wrong.

Other than that, I'm in full agreement.
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Good point. I don't know what's in the Campy specific cups for pressfit. Maybe there are seals or maybe they've done away with the "seals" in the cups altogether and rely solely on the bearing seals themselves? Thanks, hadn't even thought of that. So, if there are seals in the cups then maybe that could add a bit of drag as well.
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Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

ColnagoEPQ
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by ColnagoEPQ

I have installed a BBInfinite bottom bracket in my son's Cervelo S3 and Campagnolo Super Record crank arms. Installation is straightforward, crank spins smoothly and no noise, no problems for almost a year and 5,000 miles of use. Cervelo does not support Campagnolo very well and in particular the BBRight bottom bracket shell (notorious for creaks). The BBInfinite product is well made and looks just fine once installed on the frame.

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bikerjulio
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by bikerjulio

Calnago wrote:Good point. I don't know what's in the Campy specific cups for pressfit. Maybe there are seals or maybe they've done away with the "seals" in the cups altogether and rely solely on the bearing seals themselves? Thanks, hadn't even thought of that. So, if there are seals in the cups then maybe that could add a bit of drag as well.


I went and found a pic. The BB86 cups have the seals all right.

Image
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Ah... ok... looks like the seals are recessed a bit from where the bearings would seat, so doesn't seem they would touch the bearing itself.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
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bikerjulio
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by bikerjulio

Calnago wrote:Ah... ok... looks like the seals are recessed a bit from where the bearings would seat, so doesn't seem they would touch the bearing itself.


Just the spindle :wink:

Fun aside, the seals in the cups serve only to keep any water that enters the BB shell, like from the seat tube, from getting at the bearings. If it's a modern frame with a sealed BB shell, these seals are doing nothing.
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

AJS914
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by AJS914

But wouldn't those seals cause drag that would prevent the crank from spinning like in calnago's video?

I was also wondering if the wavy washer could be causing drag, say if the BB shell was a tiny bit too wide?

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bikerjulio
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by bikerjulio

AJS914 wrote:But wouldn't those seals cause drag that would prevent the crank from spinning like in calnago's video?

I was also wondering if the wavy washer could be causing drag, say if the BB shell was a tiny bit too wide?


Yes, the seals in the BB86 cups cause a small amount of drag. Thought I made that clear.

As for the second point, it's easy enough to measure the BB shell. If it was outside Campy specs, then yes, the bearing would start to bind up. Don't think that's the issue here though.
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Wavy washer does not cause drag, it touches the edge of the outer race of the bearing only. Inner race, pressed onto the spindle is untouched by the wavy washer and free to spin to oblivion.
If those seals in the pressfit cups actually touch the spindle, then I suppose there could be "some" drag, but pretty minimal I would think.
Actually, in that video of the SRM crank I posted it came with the CULT bearing packed with grease. Defeats the whole purpose of the cult bearings. I flushed out the grease in favor of a couple drops of ProGold synthetic lube. Interestingly, they had not packed the non drive side bearing (even though it's the same as the drive side). I have run the first SRM Campy crank since they introduced it, no grease, just a couple drops of oil. Completely trouble free.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

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