New wheels - Enve or lightweight

[tranzformer]

It's so funny that the same guys who comment for pages and pages on which frame comes 4th or 5th in a 'Tour aero frames test' cannot accept the clear winner of a 'Tour aero wheelsets test'.

It is funny that you don't believe in aero road frames being a difference and keep harping that they don't really make a difference outside of the windtunnel, but you believe in aero wheels being a difference? Make up your mind.


As mentioned above, the little benefit that a LW wheel might have with rim weight over a Enve or Zipp or Hed wheel just doesn't even matter at all. What matters more is aero and rolling resistance + complete system weight of rider + bike.


You are just grasping at straws, as usual.

[kgt]

It is funny that you don't believe in aero road frames being a difference and keep harping that they don't really make a difference outside of the windtunnel, but you believe in aero wheels being a difference? Make up your mind.

It's not about aero or not it's about common sence and the obvious lack of it.

[Grill]

It's so funny that the same guys who comment for pages and pages on which frame comes 4th or 5th in a 'Tour aero frames test' cannot accept the clear winner of a 'Tour aero wheelsets test'.

A 'winner' that completely disregards aerodynamics... Yeah, looks legit to me.

It is funny that you don't believe in aero road frames being a difference and keep harping that they don't really make a difference outside of the windtunnel, but you believe in aero wheels being a difference? Make up your mind.

It's not about aero or not it's about common sence and the obvious lack of it.

You can't hide behind the crutch of 'common sense' when it's convenient for you and completely disregard it when it invalidates your argument.

[kgt]

A 'winner' that completely disregards aerodynamics... Yeah, looks legit to me.

You can't hide behind the crutch of 'common sense' when it's convenient for you and completely disregard it when it invalidates your argument.

Common sense says:
1. Tour does the 'aero wheelset test'. LW is the clear winner period.
2. Aerodynamics are not disregarded at all in this test. Aero gets 25% of the total grade. Aero performance is also explained in graphs, angles, watts etc. etc. LWs come 7th out of 16 wheelsets in aero performance.
3. Obviously there are other characteristics that matter as well, if not more, in order for LW to get the first place in the test. Weight, stiffness etc. etc.

[mimason]

Tour is a german publication that I notice tends to modestly favor german companies. I could be wrong but this is something I have perceived over the last 7-10 years. I read reviews from many different countries and many others seem to have some slight bias as well. Clearly, this forum is also no exception, where the east of pond favors LW more and west of pond Enve.

My experience of the two is only with ENVE products but I had two close riding buddies on LW and both moved to ENVE due to aggravations with getting repairs and warranty work done. To me the clear winner is the company that will service any issues more timely and with the least hassle OR provide for a discount to justify any inconvenience.

Personally, Enve would be a better choice based on this, but my last purchase was not an ENVE product. It was from Campy, Bora Ones to be specific. The reason was a quality product comparable to the ENVE wheels I was looking at but at a massive price discount which was the deciding factor. This was with the understanding that I would be foregoing ENVE non proprietary parts with easy repairs and replacements of hubs, spokes, etc to offsest the proprietary hassles of high cost and delays in getting Campy replacement parts.

Good luck, they are both nice. All this aside from aero arguments which favor ENVE strongly imho.

[Grill]

A 'winner' that completely disregards aerodynamics... Yeah, looks legit to me.

You can't hide behind the crutch of 'common sense' when it's convenient for you and completely disregard it when it invalidates your argument.[/quote="Grill"]

Not inconvenient at all. Common sense says:
1. Tour does the 'aero wheelset test'. LW is the clear winner period.
2. Aerodynamics are not disregarded at all in this test. Aero gets 25% of the total grade. Aero performance is also explained in graphs, angles, watts etc. etc. LWs come 7th out of 16 wheelsets in aero performance.
3. Obviously there are other characteristics that matter as well, if not more, in order for LW to get the first place in the test. Weight, stiffness etc. etc.

1. LW is the winner of an aero wheelset test that is awarded based upon the editor's fancy. 'Winning' this test means almost as much as getting a gold time in a sportive. Almost.
2. An aero test where aero only counts for 25%? If only winning a marathon were only about 25% running...
3. Like the editors of Tour swinging from LW's nuts? Nothing new, they do the same for Storck.

So Tour is your bible and LW is the messiah. Let me know when you come up with a remotely worthwhile contention and I'll happily engage, but this is getting to be too masochistic for me.

[53x12]

It is funny that you don't believe in aero road frames being a difference and keep harping that they don't really make a difference outside of the windtunnel, but you believe in aero wheels being a difference? Make up your mind.

It's not about aero or not it's about common sence and the obvious lack of it.

We all know that you don't understand aero or how to incorporate it into competitive cycling.

The question is why do you ignore Tour aero data for road bikes, but then point to it for wheels to show how LW is superior? Cherry picking a lot?

I have also shown you the logic, data, math, physics behind rim weight being a red herring. If you want to keep ignoring that fact, I can't help you. But I am trying to do you a favor and educate you on something that you don't quite understand. If you want to remain ignorant, that is ok too. Picking equipment on feel or likes works too. But don't spread misinformation and regard them as facts. That is disingenuous and doesn't help those who come after and read this thread.

[kgt]

We all know that you don't understand aero or how to incorporate it into competitive cycling.
The question is why do you ignore Tour aero data for road bikes, but then point to it for wheels to show how LW is superior? Cherry picking a lot?
I have also shown you the logic, data, math, physics behind rim weight being a red herring. If you want to keep ignoring that fact, I can't help you. But I am trying to do you a favor and educate you on something that you don't quite understand. If you want to remain ignorant, that is ok too. Picking equipment on feel or likes works too. But don't spread misinformation and regard them as facts. That is disingenuous and doesn't help those who come after and read this thread.

1. I understand aero much more than you that's why I am critical while you are following silly marketing (of course you call it data, science. math etc. etc.).
2. I never said LWs are superior because of their aero performance. Their overall performance is what makes them exceptional. According to Tour and most other reviewers.
3. You did not prove rim weigh being a red herring. Nobody actually believes that rim weight is not important at all.
4. Let the readers decide what helps 'em and what not.

[53x12]

1. I understand aero much more than you that's why I am critical while you are following silly marketing (of course you call it data, science. math etc. etc.).

No you don't. You posts in the past and now prove that.

2. I never said LWs are superior because of their aero performance. Their overall performance is what makes them exceptional. According to Tour and most other reviewers.

I never said you said their aero performance was superior. I said you pointed to the Tour aero test to show how the LW were superior.

However, you did point out that the LW is 7th out of 16 in terms of aero. So you must believe in aero and Tour's testing protocols to believe that and mention it. Yet, you don't believe Tour's or Velonews' aero testing for aero road bikes vs. non-aero road bikes. Strange, eh mate?

3. You did not prove rim weigh being a red herring. Nobody actually believes that rim weight is not important at all.

Stop trolling. I already showed it multiple times. I will show it again so that it gets into you.



Green= rim mass of +400 grams.

Now go troll some other thread kgt.

[kgt]

1. LW is the winner of an aero wheelset test that is awarded based upon the editor's fancy. 'Winning' this test means almost as much as getting a gold time in a sportive. Almost.
2. An aero test where aero only counts for 25%? If only winning a marathon were only about 25% running...
3. Like the editors of Tour swinging from LW's nuts? Nothing new, they do the same for Storck.
So Tour is your bible and LW is the messiah. Let me know when you come up with a remotely worthwhile contention and I'll happily engage, but this is getting to be too masochistic for me.

1. As every test in every magazine.
2. 25% for aero alone is high enough. A wheelset is not a frisbee.
3. Tour editors like german stuff but LWs get rave reviews by most magazines, users and reviewers worldwide.

You may just say 'I don't think LW is a great wheelset, I prefer Enve' or whatever. That's your opinion let me have mine.

[kgt]

Stop trolling. I already showed it multiple times. I will show it again so that it gets into you.

Green= rim mass of +400 grams.
Now go troll some other thread kgt.

Sorry but thinking that this diagram is a proof that inertia does not exist just proves your ignorance. End of 'trolling'.

[Grill]

Opinions are fine. Trying to pass off conjecture as canon is not.

[LeviR]

Who won the debate? LOL.

It all boils down to personal taste. What works for me, may or may not work for anyone.

I have both. Well actually a custom Enve 3.4 clincher with Tune 70/170 hubs and a Lightweight Meilenstein Clincher (current version). I am not getting into a debate. like them both. They are both great wheelset.

[53x12]

Stop trolling. I already showed it multiple times. I will show it again so that it gets into you.

Green= rim mass of +400 grams.
Now go troll some other thread kgt.

Sorry but thinking that this diagram is a proof that inertia does not exist just proves your ignorance. End of 'trolling'.

Where did I say that inertia "does not exist" in this thread?

I said that rim weight isn't as important as some make it out to be and that the claims of "lack of inertia," "easy to spin up," "quick to accelerate" "easy to get up to speed" are all marketing terms.

Again, I already pointed out that with a 400g increase in weight at the rim it only makes up 1% of the force that is being felt at the pedal. The weight of the system (bike + rider) is by far much larger as is rolling resistance and wheel aero. Rim weight/inertia falls way way down the list.


Mass of bike + rider is by far much larger @ 68.4%
Aero drag is by far much larger @ 17.2%
Rolling resistance is by far much larger @ 13.4%
400g increase of rim weight @ 1%


kgt, 1% <<<<< 13.4% < 17.2% <<< 68.4%

[spud]

no dog in this fight. But

I've won field sprints with 1600 gram, non aero wheel sets.
I've lost field sprints with Zipp 404s.

I've never ridden LW, but bet they are a nice feeling, stiff wheel set. I've ridden Enve, they did not cause pad rub, and they are very nice wheels. Over the course of time, I'd rather have a wheel set that did not require returning to a service center to take care of a problem. And I sure would rather not spend the $ on LW - random shit can happen when riding/racing, and wiping out a mega $ wheel set would really bum me out.