Velonews: Trek Madone vs. Specialized Venge ViAS
Moderator: robbosmans
What this chart shows actually is that according the Tour the best bikes are the Canyon Aeroad and the Scott Foil.
So packetloss is absolutely right: "neither the Madone nor the VIAS are worth their exorbitant price".
So packetloss is absolutely right: "neither the Madone nor the VIAS are worth their exorbitant price".
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kgt wrote:What this chart shows actually is that according the Tour the best bikes are the Canyon Aeroad and the Scott Foil.
So packetloss is absolutely right: "neither the Madone nor the VIAS are worth their exorbitant price".
The Aeroad and Foil are both nice frames.
The thing Tour has never been able to work out and convince me is how a steering column rigidity of 99 Nm is better than 94 Nm and what that means on the road.
Or how a lateral fork stiffness of 53 N/mm is better than 43 N/mm.
It is very easy to show how a frame that is 204w is different than one that is 222w. Can do the math to show exactly what that means for both frames on the same road under the same conditions.
But wth does a deflection difference of 5 Nm mean or or 10 N/mm? The answer is no one knows yet, and most likely doesn't matter as long as there is enough stiffness there. More stiffness above a certain amount probably doesn't matter and might even be a negative.
"Marginal gains are the only gains when all that's left to gain is in the margins."
Also strange that the stiffness numbers combine to be worth 35% of the grade, almost as much as weight and aero drag combined.
[strike]And lower seatpost deflection is a good thing? Seems like it should be the opposite[/strike], and that's worth 10% alone!
[strike]And lower seatpost deflection is a good thing? Seems like it should be the opposite[/strike], and that's worth 10% alone!
Last edited by Krackor on Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It is the opposite. A lower N/mm result gives a lower score, and a lower score is a good thing (5 being the highest and worst possible score, 1 being the lowest and best). TOUR have it the right way around.
Also I would treat torsional, fork and BB stiffness as one packet that has a unified effect on responsiveness and handling, and seatpost deflection as a seperate category that affects comfort.
Also I would treat torsional, fork and BB stiffness as one packet that has a unified effect on responsiveness and handling, and seatpost deflection as a seperate category that affects comfort.
Yep, you're right, I didn't read closely enough.
How did they measure seatpost deflection? Was it from a load applied to the seatpost itself, or did they somehow measure the compliance of an impact on the rear wheel, transmitted through the rear triangle and into the seatpost?
How did they measure seatpost deflection? Was it from a load applied to the seatpost itself, or did they somehow measure the compliance of an impact on the rear wheel, transmitted through the rear triangle and into the seatpost?
Krackor wrote:Yep, you're right, I didn't read closely enough.
How did they measure seatpost deflection? Was it from a load applied to the seatpost itself, or did they somehow measure the compliance of an impact on the rear wheel, transmitted through the rear triangle and into the seatpost?
All those answers are here in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=136752
"Marginal gains are the only gains when all that's left to gain is in the margins."
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kgt wrote:What this chart shows actually is that according the Tour the best bikes are the Canyon Aeroad and the Scott Foil.
So packetloss is absolutely right: "neither the Madone nor the VIAS are worth their exorbitant price".
Says the guy who spends an exorbitant amount on a Cippo bike.
Also don't forget that a similarly spec'd Scott Foil Premium costs the same thing as a similarly spec'd Trek Madone 9.9 ($12,000 USD vs. $12,000 USD). So wrong again kgt. As usual.
If one has the same values has Tour in the same ratio and agree with Tour testing methods, then yes maybe the Canyon and Scott are the "best" ones. However, the Trek really isn't far off from those two and came in 2nd place overall after Canyon and Scott and is noticeably more aero than both of them. Also, remember that not every country has access to Canyon bikes.
lol
another follower...
My dear tranzformer my Cippo is handmade in Italy and I got it for 2000 euros (the frame). My complete bike (many used parts and components on it) did not cost me more than 4000 euros including LWs. I am not an idiot as...
another follower...
My dear tranzformer my Cippo is handmade in Italy and I got it for 2000 euros (the frame). My complete bike (many used parts and components on it) did not cost me more than 4000 euros including LWs. I am not an idiot as...
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kgt, you sure are special:
kgt fails to realize that a similarly built Scott Foil Premium costs the same amount as a Trek Madone 9. lolz There goes that "they are not worth their exorbitant price" while giving the award to the Scott.
Troll harder kgt, you are losing a step.
kgt wrote:What this chart shows actually is that according the Tour the best bikes are the Canyon Aeroad and the Scott Foil.
So packetloss is absolutely right: "neither the Madone nor the VIAS are worth their exorbitant price".
kgt fails to realize that a similarly built Scott Foil Premium costs the same amount as a Trek Madone 9. lolz There goes that "they are not worth their exorbitant price" while giving the award to the Scott.
Troll harder kgt, you are losing a step.
That's an irrelevant answer... How old are you btw?
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kgt wrote:lol
another follower...
My dear tranzformer my Cippo is handmade in Italy and I got it for 2000 euros (the frame). My complete bike (many used parts and components on it) did not cost me more than 4000 euros including LWs. I am not an idiot as...
We aren't talking about pricing based off of what members can get on a used price, a buddy buddy discount or a sale price. Talking about standard MSRP pricing for new as there are always deals and discounts that are highly dependent on region, personal connections and favors owed.
A Cippo frame new in the USA is $4,700. A Trek Madone 9 H2 frameset is $4,730. Don't forget that with the Trek you get your brakes and your stem + handlebar for that price, so it actually makes the Trek cheaper than the Cippo.
"Says the guy who spends an exorbitant amount on a Cippo bike."
That's you...
That's you...
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kgt wrote:That's an irrelevant answer... How old are you btw?
So let me get this straight. You say the Trek is over priced, but when you compare a Madone that is similarly built up to the Scott and they equal the same price and it blows your false assertion to nothing, than it is an irrelevant answer? haha. Good grief you are losing a step.
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@tranzformer
The Scott (always according to the Tour's test) is better than the Madone and much better than the vias. i.e. 1.4 is waayy better than 1.7.
Even if the price is the same, still, neither the Madone nor the VIAS are worth it. Not to mention the Aeroad which is also better than both the Madone and the vias and much cheaper as well.
No?
I could not care less about any of these bikes but you just started the cyberbullying about me, my bike etc. etc.
The Scott (always according to the Tour's test) is better than the Madone and much better than the vias. i.e. 1.4 is waayy better than 1.7.
Even if the price is the same, still, neither the Madone nor the VIAS are worth it. Not to mention the Aeroad which is also better than both the Madone and the vias and much cheaper as well.
No?
I could not care less about any of these bikes but you just started the cyberbullying about me, my bike etc. etc.