Velonews: Trek Madone vs. Specialized Venge ViAS

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Krackor
Posts: 257
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 9:48 pm

by Krackor

kgt wrote:@tranzformer
The Scott (always according to the Tour's test) is better than the Madone and much better than the vias. i.e. 1.4 is waayy better than 1.7.

It's better according to Tour's chosen weighting, but if, for example, you're just after straight line speed for breakaways or sprints, it looks like both the Madone and ViAS are better than the Foil on account of their lower drag numbers.

Making a blanket statement about how one of these bikes is better than another is the kind of generalization that belongs in a glossy magazine, not on this forum. "Best" depends on the purpose, and people use bikes for all kinds of purposes.

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SLCBrandon
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by SLCBrandon

^possibly one of the better posts I've seen on this forum. Well said.

NealH
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Joined: Sat May 12, 2007 3:40 am
Location: Ormond Be, FL

by NealH

Krackor wrote:
Making a blanket statement about how one of these bikes is better than another is the kind of generalization that belongs in a glossy magazine, not on this forum. "Best" depends on the purpose, and people use bikes for all kinds of purposes.


:thumbup:

Yes, well said.

tranzformer
Posts: 846
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:36 pm

by tranzformer

kgt wrote:@tranzformer
The Scott (always according to the Tour's test) is better than the Madone and much better than the vias. i.e. 1.4 is waayy better than 1.7.
Even if the price is the same, still, neither the Madone nor the VIAS are worth it. Not to mention the Aeroad which is also better than both the Madone and the vias and much cheaper as well.
No?
I could not care less about any of these bikes but you just started the cyberbullying about me, my bike etc. etc.



Not cyber bullying. Just pointing out fallacies in your statements.

1. The Madone 9 (and Shiv ViAS for that matter) are not more expensive than a similarly spec'd Scott Foil and are the same price (Shiv slightly more here in USA). Therefore your statement of the "exhorbitant price" of Trek is false as it is priced equally to Scott.

2. Your Cippo Bond frameset costs the same new in USA as a Trek Madone H2 frameset. Yet the Trek comes with the cockpit and brakes, actually making it cheaper than your Cippo Bond frame. So potentially making a Cippo Bond owner the same kind of idiot as a Trek Madone owner.

3. Canyon's are not offered for sale in every country, not to mention not all consumers are willing to wait 4-6 months for an order.

4. A 1.4 (Scott and Canyon) score vs. a 1.5 (Trek) score is not that big of a difference in my opinion and basically a wash when you consider the Tour Magazins favoritism for German bikes. One could weight the scoring much differently and Coke to however end result one would.

I find it funny for someone who doesn't believe in science and math (regarding benefit of aerodynamics in cycling) believes in the supposed science and math that Tour uses for their comparison testing and use that as some end all.

The Tour test is good for what it is, getting numerical values according to the testing they do in their lab. That is great. The more complex stuff is knowing how their stiffness and comfort numbers project to real world performance. We aren't quite there yet. At least with aero we know what a 15w difference means on the road.

Lieblingsleguan
Posts: 182
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:47 pm

by Lieblingsleguan

kgt wrote:@tranzformer
The Scott (always according to the Tour's test) is better than the Madone and much better than the vias. i.e. 1.4 is waayy better than 1.7.
Even if the price is the same, still, neither the Madone nor the VIAS are worth it. Not to mention the Aeroad which is also better than both the Madone and the vias and much cheaper as well.
No?
I could not care less about any of these bikes but you just started the cyberbullying about me, my bike etc. etc.

At this point, it is worth noting that the test doesn't consist of graphs only. There is also text. Tour Mag writes that the Madone could have won the test with better brake pads and better tires. I think, every dealer would happily switch those parts for you without additional cost on a bike like this. Not even the Trek Segafredo Team is using Bontrager tires...

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kgt
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Location: Athens, Greece

by kgt

tranzformer your replies to my posts are like:
"Says the guy who spends an exorbitant amount on a Cippo bike" or "I find it funny for someone who doesn't believe in science and math..."
What are you trying to prove really?.. Again, how old are you?

tranzformer
Posts: 846
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:36 pm

by tranzformer

The reason kgt is that you echoed the comment that the Trek and Specialized are an exorbitant price. I showed you that they cost the same built similarly as a Scott Foil that you said was a much better deal. So that voices your price complaint.

Not only did I show they cost similarly to the Scott Foil when built similarly, but I also showed you how the price for a new Cipo Bond frame is the same price as a Trek Madone 9 H2 frameset and the Cipo is actually more expensive as the Trek comes with the brakes and cockpit for the price. So you ride a very exorbitantly expensive frame.

For one that claims to be an engineer/teach engineering, you often seem to lack basic understanding of math and aerodynamic engineering when these discussions come up. Despite being shown that you are wrong with data collected through science and analyzed using math, you keep repeating the same statements over and over. When people attempt to educate you where you are wrong and better inform you, you just scoff it off. If you don't want to learn, that is ok. But why keep coming into aero threads over and over than?

Hopefully this has made it clear to you.


DavidMLee
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by DavidMLee

Tour mag's results are far more objective to me.(which says Madone is a clear winner)

Rim depth is different and did not consider a rider on top.
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tonytourist
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by tonytourist

@tranzformer
The Bond is a MONOCOQUE and therefore possesses superior aerodynamic qualities, lighter weight, and higher stiffness. :roll:
:smartass: :smartass: :smartass: :mrgreen:

jefftillack
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:09 am

by jefftillack

Hi guys,
Been following this thread for awhile, and while I'm interested in all aspects of bikes and design, I'm wondering what all the argument is about? Like, really? Everyone is entitled to ride whatever they want and whatever they can afford. Does it matter whether it's exorbitant or not? hell, if I could afford a top of the line bike (like a Cippo, Pina or whatever) I'd certainly have one! And if it was the most aero, for me, it'd have to be comfortable as well. If it wasn't, for my build, then to me it's not worth it. No-one is wrong (imho), just everything to do with bikes is usually subjective. So I don't entirely understand the arguing???

AZK
Posts: 130
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:11 am

by AZK

tranzformer wrote:
Not only did I show they cost similarly to the Scott Foil when built similarly, but I also showed you how the price for a new Cipo Bond frame is the same price as a Trek Madone 9 H2 frameset and the Cipo is actually more expensive as the Trek comes with the brakes and cockpit for the price. So you ride a very exorbitantly expensive frame.




This is not entirely true for WW members outside the USA. The Madone Frameset is considerably more expensive than a Cipollini Bond in the UK and I suspect Europe as well. Also The Madone stem and bar combo is NOT included in the frameset price.

H2 600 OCLV frameset = £3350
Stem bar combo = £449
Total = £3799

Even with some of the worlds most exotic parts the Cipollini is still cheaper.

Cipollini Bond T700 = £2300
EE Brakes £527
AX-Lightness 4200 bar = £339
AX-Lightness Rigid stem = £482
Total = £3648

And to make matters worse, If you need the H1 geometry (OCLV 700) it costs £750 extra!

Guess I should replace those EE brakes above with THM Fibulas and run Ceramic everything :roll:

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