2015 Super Record shifting/RD issues

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wingguy
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Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:43 pm

by wingguy

That's you're interpretation, I think you've misunderstood.

And again, jockey wheel clearance outside Campy specs can have a big effect on shifting performance. That's not spin, it's real life.

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beeatnik
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Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:26 pm

by beeatnik

otoman wrote:
beeatnik wrote:Anyhoo, I learned to deal with the bad shifting by holding the lever a half beat longer, literally guiding the chain up the cassette. Before that I ranted/pleaded for guidance here:
http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2 ... 42108.html


Agree with needing to hold the lever slightly longer. I had Record and SR on an R3 and an S1, both pre-geometry change. in other words, very short chain stays as mentioned.

Since you are using SRAM and Shimano stuff, I am going to assume you are new to Campag? Cable friction and routing is more important than with Shimano. It is especially important with how the housing is oriented at the shifter. Smooth visual lines coming off those shifters onto the bars!


Campag was my first 11s and from there no turning back. However, on my Cielo Sportif Classic I had to go w/ 6800 for optimal shifting. Those semi-horizontal dropouts!

And well aware of routing and friction "issues" with 11s Campagnolo. My solution: no frames with internal routing, ever.

fogman
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by fogman

I use 2014 Campagnolo SR mechanical on an internally routed Pinarello Dogma 65.1 with no problems.


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nd2rc
Posts: 290
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Location: Tennessee

by nd2rc

I'm thinking of a record rd and fd (they look great!) and chorus shifters and cassette.

So my questions for you guys, since most of you sound pretty solid on experience, is there a quality difference with Campagnolo chains, like Shimano, and if so is it worth it? On the cassette, other than trick light weight titanium, is there better shifting performance between Chorus, Record, and SR cassettes (man I hate the idea of running a Shimano 6800 cassette)? And how about the FD, I have looked up and down the internet for any good reasoning for the S2 version and can't find a clear explanation. Can you guys point me to some literature I can read or a video I can watch, and if it's to improve front shifting based on seat tube flex (?) (from what I understand), is it needed on a Cervelo S5?

AJS914
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by AJS914

I would just go all Chorus. I like to match. :-) Most guys, after they break the little plastic tab on the carbon front derailleurs switch to Chorus anyway. The cassettes will all shift the same. You pay a lot extra for titanium weight savings.

The S2 front derailleur has a little arm that swings out and braces the front derailleur against the frame.

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rmerka
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by rmerka

I wonder how well the S2 FD would mate up with your S5. It seems intended for a round tube, it's basically just a brace like the new Shimano stuff and is only needed if the derailleur moves after being torqued down, that's the only reason for it. On the chain I use a Record chain and the quality is unsurpassed. It's an outstanding chain. I picked up several extras the other day from Glory Cycles as they are selling them really cheap, like $48, cheaper than their Chorus chain. Kinda weird but I wasn't complaining.

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boysa
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by boysa

Ribble has Record chains for <$36... cheaper if you wait until they do a discount on drivetrain parts. Strong dollar means I'm stocked up!

I've always said the Record chain is the jewel of all things Campagnolo, but I did recently grab a Wipperman to try. It'll go on next month.
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nd2rc
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Location: Tennessee

by nd2rc

Rad, thanks for the info guys! So looking at the S2 version on Campagnolo's site and based off what you're saying, do you unscrew and remove that little arm after everything is torqued down?

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rmerka
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by rmerka

No, you leave the little arm loose, then get your FD set straight and relative your chainrings and adjust the height. Torque down the FD. Then you push the little arm so it touches the frame (they supply a little protector sticker) then tighten down the little arm.

nd2rc
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by nd2rc

Oh okay, got it. Thanks!

Flapmeat
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Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:52 pm

by Flapmeat

OK, sorry for the delay. I'll try to answer everyone's response.

First and foremost, something I should have mentioned; I'm using a Record chain. Not sure if I mentioned this but everything I installed was brand new, never used. SR crankset is a MY2014, but as mentioned before, brand new. Chainstay length on the model R3 I have is 399mm IIRC.

I'm using cassettes other than Campy because I can't fathom buying a Chorus cassette when I can get a Red cassette for the same price, especially when the Red is a monoblock design AND is lighter/way cheaper than a SR cassette.

I did the work myself.

The screw that is at the back of the der hanger (the B screw traditionally used with SRAM/Shimano) has not been touched. It is fully backed out. The other screw which is on the upper jockey wheel has been tightened (turned clockwise) all the way, which has an immediate effect on the distance from pulley to cassette. Loosening (turning counter clockwise) this screw makes the distance from the jockey wheel to the cassette grow, not shrink.

Der hanger alignment is +/- .020" which I think translates to around 0.5mm. I triple checked this before installing everything and I just checked it last night again (since I have ridden it)

Shifting on the 11-25 is extremely lazy regardless of how I *f##k* with the cable tension, especially on the bigger cogs. It will almost never shift from the 25 cog to the 23. I have to shift to the 21 and then go back to the 23 for it to engage. It doesn't matter where on the cassette though, shifting is still super slow. Shifting the 11-28 is quite a bit better, especially on the larger cogs. It does tend to get a little lazy with the smaller cogs. Cable tension is not the issue, I have *f##k* with this for hours.

Cable routing has no sharp bends at all. This model R3 doesn't have any internal routing at all (thank god). I have the shift cable running from the shifter to the outside and back side of the handlebar (the way of the least amount of bend possible). Not sure if anyone will follow me on that or not, but basically, looking at this image ( http://cdn.velonews.competitor.com/file ... 86x440.jpg ) I have the cable running through the channel closest to that white sticker. Rear housing length is actually the length they supplied which provides a nice big loop. I will check into this later today though and mess with a couple different lengths.

I've tried to remove the der hanger bolt the correct way, but one of the Torx I was using was just about to sheer off. To the trash that one goes.

I think that's everything. I'll get pictures later today. Any requests?

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bikerjulio
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by bikerjulio

Good detail.

The most likely cause is the one to eliminate first, especially when you have such classic symptoms.

Shifting on the 11-25 is extremely lazy regardless of how I *f##k* with the cable tension, especially on the bigger cogs. It will almost never shift from the 25 cog to the 23. I have to shift to the 21 and then go back to the 23 for it to engage.


A shift to a smaller cog relies on spring tension in the RD, with the only thing opposing that being the cable. Assuming that the shifter is working properly, and regardless of your careful cable routing, you have the classic symptom of the cable hanging up.

You need to undo the cable at the RD and try an initial check by just pulling it back and forth, holding both ends. Should move nice and easily.

There are a variety of possible causes. Kinked cable. Poor housing prep at the shifter or elsewhere. Rear loop short. Cable guide. And probably a few others.

Somewhere you have unwanted friction.
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Yes, good info and detail for troubleshooting. Firstly, if it was me I would want a campy cassette on there and blow off the Red mono block to eliminate that possibility. The manufacturers have spent a huge amount of time trying to outdo each other with how THEIR systems work together. That is, the timing and ramps on the cogs and chainrings and how they interface with the chain cannot be underestimated in my opinion. While mixin and matching "may" work, it's very frustrating when it doesn't only to find out later that the issue was due to a slight anomaly in how the parts are working together. Nuff said on that.
Ok... Derailleur hanger alignment seems well within spec. How bout the rear derailleur cable loop, is it large enough and smooth. Maybe a pic? I know you said it was uncut but I have come across situations where it just wasn't long enough, happened to be Cervelo but with a SRAM rear derailleur which often needs a "huge" loop in comparison to others. And how old is it, and how clean (inside)? I'm going to assume since its 2015 stuff that the cable set was new with the group, but just asking. In case it isn't I might want to replace it. Also, are you using campy cable housing and are the ends cut square with no crimped liners from the cut? Oh, and if you use sports drinks make sure the spillage hasn't made its way to your BB cable guide area and gunked things up into s syrupy mess. Had some racer dude call me up on a Friday night before some race once in a panic that his front shifter was broken. Felt like it was broken actually but needed nothing more than a good clean out down there.
The other thing is the cable routing from the shifter in conjunction with the bars you are using. The routing you are using is not optimal. I've used it in the past and in early 11sp days. I never use it anymore. That bend out of the derailleur is very acute compared to the alternate routing and the cables will eventually fray at that spot, much like the issue with the new Shimano cable routing. In fact, new Campy shifters come with derailleur cables preinstalled through the other guide versus the route that you have used. It's better. Use it. Pain in the ass I know to change at this point but what else are you going to do. At a minimum pull back the shift lever cover to look at that bend in the white guide in the shifter and carefully check for any frayed strands of cable as even one broken strand will mess things up. It happens.
Using the alternate routing (from what you have) will take the cables to the front of the bars. I don't care if the bars have a guide or indent on the back of the bars for a cable coming out of the route you have used, I just fill that in and ignore it.
One more thing to look at is chain length, as if it's too short it will affect tension and may make it a tad more difficult for the derailleur to do its thing, especially with chainstays that are on the shorter side of ideal (anything less than 405mm). That's all I can think of without actually seeing and touching it.
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bikerjulio
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by bikerjulio

I read through again, and did not see what cables you were using. Campy are best.

Like Calnago, every Campy bike I have ever put together has the cables routed to the front, with no issues. That's consistently been the way Campy show it on their videos, and as Calnago says, it's how they supply the shifters.
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

by Weenie


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Flapmeat
Posts: 49
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by Flapmeat

NOTE - I only have extra Shimano cable housing available to test stuff out. The only campy stuff I have is on the bike. So any tests I do will be with Shimano housing. I don't have any extra Campy cables so I'll have to order a few. Because of this I won't be able to try anything that requires a cable that's longer than what I already have on the bike.

bikerjulio wrote:Good detail.

The most likely cause is the one to eliminate first, especially when you have such classic symptoms.

Shifting on the 11-25 is extremely lazy regardless of how I *f##k* with the cable tension, especially on the bigger cogs. It will almost never shift from the 25 cog to the 23. I have to shift to the 21 and then go back to the 23 for it to engage.


A shift to a smaller cog relies on spring tension in the RD, with the only thing opposing that being the cable. Assuming that the shifter is working properly, and regardless of your careful cable routing, you have the classic symptom of the cable hanging up.

You need to undo the cable at the RD and try an initial check by just pulling it back and forth, holding both ends. Should move nice and easily.

There are a variety of possible causes. Kinked cable. Poor housing prep at the shifter or elsewhere. Rear loop short. Cable guide. And probably a few others.

Somewhere you have unwanted friction.


Does not seem like there is much cable friction at all. There is a tiny bit of resistance but I imagine that's nominal since there are a few bends. I tried this out with the new loop cable as mentioned below as well, same thing.

Calnago wrote:Yes, good info and detail for troubleshooting. Firstly, if it was me I would want a campy cassette on there and blow off the Red mono block to eliminate that possibility. The manufacturers have spent a huge amount of time trying to outdo each other with how THEIR systems work together. That is, the timing and ramps on the cogs and chainrings and how they interface with the chain cannot be underestimated in my opinion. While mixin and matching "may" work, it's very frustrating when it doesn't only to find out later that the issue was due to a slight anomaly in how the parts are working together. Nuff said on that.
Ok... Derailleur hanger alignment seems well within spec. How bout the rear derailleur cable loop, is it large enough and smooth. Maybe a pic? I know you said it was uncut but I have come across situations where it just wasn't long enough, happened to be Cervelo but with a SRAM rear derailleur which often needs a "huge" loop in comparison to others. And how old is it, and how clean (inside)? I'm going to assume since its 2015 stuff that the cable set was new with the group, but just asking. In case it isn't I might want to replace it. Also, are you using campy cable housing and are the ends cut square with no crimped liners from the cut? Oh, and if you use sports drinks make sure the spillage hasn't made its way to your BB cable guide area and gunked things up into s syrupy mess. Had some racer dude call me up on a Friday night before some race once in a panic that his front shifter was broken. Felt like it was broken actually but needed nothing more than a good clean out down there.
The other thing is the cable routing from the shifter in conjunction with the bars you are using. The routing you are using is not optimal. I've used it in the past and in early 11sp days. I never use it anymore. That bend out of the derailleur is very acute compared to the alternate routing and the cables will eventually fray at that spot, much like the issue with the new Shimano cable routing. In fact, new Campy shifters come with derailleur cables preinstalled through the other guide versus the route that you have used. It's better. Use it. Pain in the ass I know to change at this point but what else are you going to do. At a minimum pull back the shift lever cover to look at that bend in the white guide in the shifter and carefully check for any frayed strands of cable as even one broken strand will mess things up. It happens.
Using the alternate routing (from what you have) will take the cables to the front of the bars. I don't care if the bars have a guide or indent on the back of the bars for a cable coming out of the route you have used, I just fill that in and ignore it.
One more thing to look at is chain length, as if it's too short it will affect tension and may make it a tad more difficult for the derailleur to do its thing, especially with chainstays that are on the shorter side of ideal (anything less than 405mm). That's all I can think of without actually seeing and touching it.


I added as big of a loop as I could with the cable length I had. I added about an inch (25mm) and it actually spaced the pulleys farther from the cassette. Could be because it hasn't 'broken in' to the bend (meaning slowly forming to the bend...I'm pretty terrible with explaining things, sorry).

No fraying from what I could see, and I did check the full length of the cable that goes in/out of that area. All housing ends when I installed were looking fabulous. No burrs or ends that are angled (I'm anal about that). All cables and housings were brand new when I installed everything

It's funny you mention the sports drink on the BB guide thing. When I initially started cycling a couple years ago I ran into that issue. Instead of sports drink, it was a nice sized piece of that rubbery tar and a bunch of other debris stuck to it over time. Caused a huge friction point and that's an area I frequently check for that before every ride.

Pics are with 11-28
Image
Image

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