new bike obsession, aero quality of non-aero frames (Super S
Moderator: robbosmans
I'm ready to buy a new bike and caught up in the endless obsession of which to get! I've mostly narrowed things down the Cannondale Supersix Evo High Mod Dura Ace vs the 2016 Giant TCR Advanced Pro 0. I like the idea of an aero bike but don't like the way most aero frames look. So the idea of the Cannondale having some "aero" qualities with the look of a more traditional frame is appealing. But I feel like I've got to be falling sucker for marketing hype here to think there's any real difference between the two? I like the way both bikes look, and the Giant is slightly more appealing to me because of the Dura Ace crank and the wheels. But looking at the Giant in the shop, I can't help but fixate on the shape of the tubing that intuitively looks like it's shaped to be less aerodynamic with fatter head tube and downtube. Sounds ridiculous as I write it - hard to imagine that the tubing variation of "non-aero" bikes will have any significant impact - certainly less of an impact than my position, wrinkled clothing, etc. So, if I'm not going to go full aero on the frame, is it stupid to fixate on the relative aero properties of more conventional frames?? Anyone have any direct experience with both these bikes (2016 versions)? Thanks!
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- prendrefeu
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tacostand wrote:So, if I'm not going to go full aero on the frame, is it stupid to fixate on the relative aero properties of more conventional frames??
No, it isn't stupid, but it is probably not a worthwhile endeavor if you are not going full "aero" -
Aero (drop)handlebars on a modern-era frame (read: since 2013) may have more benefit than going with an aero frame w/ round handlebars.
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I think you first ride both and then decide. Ride quality is the most important thing for me. Ride quality is why I love my C59 so much even though it came about about 1/2 pound heavier than my Parlee. The ride is just magical. Looks are also high up the list. When I take my bike out I want to love it.
I agree that all this aero stuff isn't a big deal for the average guy with wrinkled clothing and a regular helmet. The difference between a sort of aero frame and a non-aero frame is going to be very small.
I agree that all this aero stuff isn't a big deal for the average guy with wrinkled clothing and a regular helmet. The difference between a sort of aero frame and a non-aero frame is going to be very small.
Body position, clothing and helmet are the most important aero factors, followed by front wheel and handlebars. Frames don't make that much of a difference actually.
I think you got awesome answers. I just want to add that without a wind tunnel you can't tell how aero a frame is. I believe that using a modern non-aero frame won't make any measurable difference during regular road use unless you are extremely fast. Obviously I'm not talking about TT.
+1 on getting the bike you like the better
+1 on getting the bike you like the better
Body positioning is by far the biggest factor, then helmet, clothes, handlebars, frame/wheel/cabling.
Aero frames will make a difference but it's very small and I'm willing to claim that it will be trumped by a frame with better power transfer and comfort...if you aren't comfortable on an aero frame over a long ride, you're not going to keep your body in an aero position the whole time...If you decide to HTFU that discomfort is still mentally draining and can distract you from focusing on what matters.
I'll always take the bike/gear that gives me the most comfortable ride in an aero body position...if I can get an aero frame that checks all the boxes without much bump (10-20%) in price, then I'll get it.
Aero frames will make a difference but it's very small and I'm willing to claim that it will be trumped by a frame with better power transfer and comfort...if you aren't comfortable on an aero frame over a long ride, you're not going to keep your body in an aero position the whole time...If you decide to HTFU that discomfort is still mentally draining and can distract you from focusing on what matters.
I'll always take the bike/gear that gives me the most comfortable ride in an aero body position...if I can get an aero frame that checks all the boxes without much bump (10-20%) in price, then I'll get it.
If you're in fine shape and can go pretty low, bike geometry matters too. I personally don't like the looks of a -17 degrees stem, and would choose a frame that'll allow me to go low.
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Jordo, kinda nailed it. Aero frames, in terms of *aerodynamics* will make a difference. How much of difference can vary hugely depending on fit, rider position etc. And there's no point having a super aero frame of you can't or don't like to ride it for decent periods of time.
And you can do testing without a wind tunnel. Not as accurate but using a power meter can get decent results.
FWIW my "old" Cevelo S5 is plenty comfy but did take some tweaking to get position right (like a -30 stem). Have done climbs, long rides, races, no issues. But if I did, I would ditch it in flash.
And you can do testing without a wind tunnel. Not as accurate but using a power meter can get decent results.
FWIW my "old" Cevelo S5 is plenty comfy but did take some tweaking to get position right (like a -30 stem). Have done climbs, long rides, races, no issues. But if I did, I would ditch it in flash.
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG
Grill wrote:Don't worry about aero claims, just buy the bike you like the look of most.
+1
Then remove spacers and get as low as you can feel comfortable.
I understand where you're coming from, why not get a dose of "free" speed!? The older TCR model had an aero seat tube and seat post, whereas the new model looks skinny but not aero shaped. It sounds like this made the old TCR relatively more aero than most other non-aero bikes, but I would not get my hopes up on the new TCR design. Without a wind tunnel it's impossible to be sure, but if I had to bet the new TCR is not very aero.
The new Supersix Evo Hi-Mod (and I'm 99% sure only the Hi-Mod version), R3/R5, Ultimate, and Scultura all have aero design elements despite not being fully aero bikes. I would give some thought to the R5 (or R3), people seem to love that bike both in my local riding groups and online. I wasn't a huge fan of the old Supersix's ride, but it seems that most people/reviewers are.
People are correct, enjoying the ride quality > 3 watts aero drag. Go test a few bikes and if one 'speaks' to you grab it, and if they all feel fine, then just pick your favorite based on whatever. My anecdotal evidence towards the mind > drag: I ride a heavier, non aero bike without aero wheels in criteriums because my fear of wrecking my nice bike slows me down way more than the extra drag. On the other hand, that didn't stop me from buying an aero frame and wheels and always using them during normal road races.
The new Supersix Evo Hi-Mod (and I'm 99% sure only the Hi-Mod version), R3/R5, Ultimate, and Scultura all have aero design elements despite not being fully aero bikes. I would give some thought to the R5 (or R3), people seem to love that bike both in my local riding groups and online. I wasn't a huge fan of the old Supersix's ride, but it seems that most people/reviewers are.
People are correct, enjoying the ride quality > 3 watts aero drag. Go test a few bikes and if one 'speaks' to you grab it, and if they all feel fine, then just pick your favorite based on whatever. My anecdotal evidence towards the mind > drag: I ride a heavier, non aero bike without aero wheels in criteriums because my fear of wrecking my nice bike slows me down way more than the extra drag. On the other hand, that didn't stop me from buying an aero frame and wheels and always using them during normal road races.
- DWatkinsBSB
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mimason wrote:FWIW, Tour mag did an aero review of non-aero frames of the older design and the Giant TCR ADV held its own .... top 1/4 IIRC.
I'm pretty sure you're talking about this:
Thoroughly discussed to exhaustion here:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=131873
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