Equivalent to Sapim CX Ray Spokes
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- spookyload
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bm0p700f wrote:Mattr you obviously are light/not hard on wheels or don't mind flexy wheels. If a customer came to me with that request I would decline and I declined such a request today. I just don't like building wheels that have flaws.
While the wheels may be fine for you they would not be fine for many. also the likely hood of spoke breakage before the rim wears out is fairly high. I prefer wheels where the spokes outlast the rim.
This is the reason why I think the Open Pro rim and lasers or Cx-rays is a no no. It will be fine for a while until fatigue sets in. It may take some time but it more than likely will happen before the rim wear out.
Also there are many better rims than the Open Pro. If I do built with one. 36H rear with sapim race spokes on a shimano hub is nice and stiff and will be long lived by any rider.
One way to think about this is if you can put the wheel out of true when stress relieving with your hands then the rider can when riding. If you lay a 32H open pro rimmed wheel on the hub axle on a block of wood the amount of side load needed to detension the NDS spokes is very low. Again easily done when riding. This lack of stiffness is the problem and accelerates the rate of fatigue.
you can tell I am not a fan but every wheel I build and ride myself is stiff, very stiff. Stiff wheels last longer you see.
I know both Revs and lazer spokes wind up very easily when building. That would likely explain why you can get them to come out of true when you are stress relieving them. The thin middle section doesn't resist torque very well and they wind right up. My application is with straight pull spokes in both cases, so I don't see where stress and fatigue at the bend will be an issue. They are a b1tch to build up with straight pull round spokes, but that is why I bought them as factory wheels.
They don't touch the pads when honking out of the saddle, they don't touch the stays on the CX bike when loading them up in corners (i've had wheels that do both).bm0p700f wrote:Mattr you obviously are light/not hard on wheels or don't mind flexy wheels.
I was 85 kilos last time i raced cross, a bit lighter now tho.
I am, however, quite easy on kit. Rarely break anything.
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- in the industry
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It is not wind up that caused the Open Pro/laser wheel to go out of true when stress relieving I know the difference. the wheel goes out when stressing because the tension changes are so big due to the lack of radial and lateral stiffness. I get none of these problem when building with lasers on stiffer rims or even the Open Pro 36H with race spoke. That there is key a stiff wheel builds easily a flexible one does not. Nothing wrong with laser spokes.
I am not surprised mattr that your wheels dont touch the pads. It is a shallow rim. Shallow rims dont show that much movement at the pads but that does not mean they are stiff. You cannot assess lateral wheel stiffness by movement at the brake pads. deeper rims will for example built into wheels that are the same lateral stiffness as a wheel built with a shallow rim will show more movement at the pads for a the same side load. This has been covered before in various articles.
So lack movement at the pads does not mean you wheel is stiff. Place it (hub down on a block of wood and side load. Then tell us it is stiff. actually don't do that your wheel will be out of shape. try the same with a stiff rimmed wheel and it will not budge no matter how much load you apply because the NDS spokes won't unload.
I built enough wheels to know what works and what can cause problems. I am not trying to have a go at you or your wheel. Just counter the notion that is alright for me [you] and therefore it will work for someone else for 10,000 miles.
I am not surprised mattr that your wheels dont touch the pads. It is a shallow rim. Shallow rims dont show that much movement at the pads but that does not mean they are stiff. You cannot assess lateral wheel stiffness by movement at the brake pads. deeper rims will for example built into wheels that are the same lateral stiffness as a wheel built with a shallow rim will show more movement at the pads for a the same side load. This has been covered before in various articles.
So lack movement at the pads does not mean you wheel is stiff. Place it (hub down on a block of wood and side load. Then tell us it is stiff. actually don't do that your wheel will be out of shape. try the same with a stiff rimmed wheel and it will not budge no matter how much load you apply because the NDS spokes won't unload.
I built enough wheels to know what works and what can cause problems. I am not trying to have a go at you or your wheel. Just counter the notion that is alright for me [you] and therefore it will work for someone else for 10,000 miles.
Yes, i know how wheels work.bm0p700f wrote:I am not surprised mattr that your wheels dont touch the pads. It is a shallow rim. Shallow rims dont show that much movement at the pads but that does not mean they are stiff.
It's an indicator, nothing else. Movement at the stays (chainstays) is also an indicator. It's no worse (or better) than other wheels i've had, with heavier gauge spokes, stiffer rims or different builders.bm0p700f wrote:You cannot assess lateral wheel stiffness by movement at the brake pads.
Um, no. Thats how i stress relieve the build. They rarely come out of shape, unless the build isn't right/finished!bm0p700f wrote:Place it (hub down on a block of wood and side load. Then tell us it is stiff. actually don't do that your wheel will be out of shape.
No matter how much load? That sounds, um, accurate.bm0p700f wrote:try the same with a stiff rimmed wheel and it will not budge no matter how much load you apply because the NDS spokes won't unload.
Yes, and all i'm saying is that you can build them well *enough* given time and patience.bm0p700f wrote:I built enough wheels to know what works and what can cause problems. I am not trying to have a go at you or your wheel. Just counter the notion that is alright for me [you] and therefore it will work for someone else for 10,000 miles.
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RussellS wrote:rpenmanparker wrote:But for cheap Lasers you cannot do better than Bike Hub Store.
Is your goal to encourage the person to spend more money than he needs to? Dan's Comp sells Sapim spokes for less money. At Dan's Comp the Laser spoke is $0.85. At your store it is $0.90. Regular 14/15 Sapim Race spokes are $0.40 at Dan's Comp. They are $0.80 at your store. Sapim CX-Ray spokes are $1.75 at Dan's Comp. They are $2.80 at your store.
For spokes and nipples you cannot beat this place for price. They sell every length, just call.
https://www.danscomp.com/shop-PARTS/gro ... pokes.html
On the contrary I will stand corrected. I appreciate your post and the information it provides.
Robert
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Danscomp is a little cheaper, and all spokes are sold individually(with a brass nipple) .gtinut wrote:get them from Starbike and there is no need to buy boxes
Their prices are about the same as dealer cost when buying from BTI-USA, and you don't have to buy bags of 20 spokes