TOUR MAG AERO TEST 2016

[53x12]

"It just seems that for some of you an aro [sic] frame gives you a great advantage while I think its advantage is almost negligible," since you say it is negligible can you please quantify what "negligible" means for us? Also, please show us where you got your data or numbers from. Show all of your work.


CdA (of rider and equipment) + crr + weight (of rider and equipment) with the weight being more pronounced when climbing, are three of the biggest forces acting against a rider.

[RyanH]

Don't forget that the psychological door swings both ways and if one wants to include that as a performance factor then as long as the rider believes the equipment is giving him or her an advantage, then they'll perform better. What do they call that? The self fulfilling prophecy?

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[citadelguard]

I don't think anyone is making the case that "an aero frame will win the race for them" just as I don't think the idea that an aero frame is completely meaningless or "negligible" is an argument that holds any real weight in light of the hard facts presented here. It is scientifically proven to not be negligible, just as it is also proven to not be an instant "game over" for someone without it.

[kgt]

Canyon's team liaison Andreas Walzer:
"The aero bike or the climbing bike? Di2 or mechanical transmission? 40mm rims or 60mm? The fixed, one-piece carbon cockpit, or the greater field of adjustment offered by a conventional aluminium bar and stem? For Andreas Walzer, Canyon's team liaison to Katusha and Movistar, it is almost entirely a matter of rider psychology. “The riders have to believe, and this is more important than anything else,” he says. “If they are confident that they have the best material, that they have chosen it, that they have changed the position of the levers, for example, then they are ready."

https://rouleur.cc/journal/bicycles/pro ... ate-cf-slx

and:
“For sure, there is something going on in a rider’s head,” he smiles, a gleam in his eye. “If a bike is pretty and they like it, then it is also fast.”

https://rouleur.cc/journal/bicycles/tea ... eas-walzer

[fatchance1973]

Why is it so hard for someone to believe that given the same rider, same position that a rider on an aero bike will be faster than the same rider on a non aero frame. How much faster? That's is still up for debate. Will an aero frame win races for you? No. You still have to pedal. Having said that I have road raced for 26 years and have won and lost races in sprints by less than half a wheel length. If I could afford one I'd been an a Trek Madone or Pinarello F8 in a heartbeat. Would those bikes have guaranteed victory in the sprints I lost? No. But when choosing equipment it's always best choosing stuff that turns the odds ,no matter how small, to your favour. If you can afford it. The general consensus is that good aero frames are faster. That itself is evident, how much faster? Whoknows but I''ll take any watts I can.

[wop]

An argument used against aerobikes is that there is almost no benefit when riding in a peloton. I doubt that very much. I was riding my new canyon aeroad yesterday when a scooter comes by at 49kph. I picked on easy and was cruising behind the scooter with an average power output of 290W. I have logs when riding my old bike when I was behind a scooter cruising at 42/43kph with a power output of 305W.

Of course there are other circumstances that come into play, so the difference should not directly be 6kph. But I still believe at the speed pro cyclists are riding an aero frame can make a big difference when riding in the pack.

That said, when climbing a mountain or sprinting, stiffness makes a huge difference. So I can see why pro cyclists choose the stiffer frames over aeroad frames.

I don't believe weight is a factor in choice for pro riders since every bike is 6,81kg (except for the Venge Vias maybe).

[mattr]

I don't believe weight is a factor in choice for pro riders since every bike is 6,81kg (except for the Venge Vias maybe).

Really? Pro bikes vary from bang on the UCI limit to maybe 1 kilo over.

But you are right in that weight isn't a factor, but it's as most pros know there is more to riding a bike than low weight.

[wop]

I don't believe weight is a factor in choice for pro riders since every bike is 6,81kg (except for the Venge Vias maybe).

Really? Pro bikes vary from bang on the UCI limit to maybe 1 kilo over.

But you are right in that weight isn't a factor, but it's as most pros know there is more to riding a bike than low weight.

Really? I did not know that, I thought almost all bikes where 6,81kg. If I where a pro rider I would do anything to get at exactly 6,81kg without compromising on quality. Exept maybe if I where a sprinter and my focus was on races that are completely flat.

[Krackor]

Canyon's team liaison Andreas Walzer:
"The aero bike or the climbing bike? Di2 or mechanical transmission? 40mm rims or 60mm? The fixed, one-piece carbon cockpit, or the greater field of adjustment offered by a conventional aluminium bar and stem? For Andreas Walzer, Canyon's team liaison to Katusha and Movistar, it is almost entirely a matter of rider psychology. “The riders have to believe, and this is more important than anything else,” he says. “If they are confident that they have the best material, that they have chosen it, that they have changed the position of the levers, for example, then they are ready."

https://rouleur.cc/journal/bicycles/pro ... ate-cf-slx

and:
“For sure, there is something going on in a rider’s head,” he smiles, a gleam in his eye. “If a bike is pretty and they like it, then it is also fast.”

https://rouleur.cc/journal/bicycles/tea ... eas-walzer

These are the subjective neuroses I referred to earlier. (I didn't see any data in the article, by the way.) A rider's psychological bias is the fault of the rider, not of the bike. It has no business in a discussion of whether a bike is fast or not. Some people like red bikes more than black bikes. That doesn't mean the red paint makes the bike faster.

I'm sure Andreas Walzer is a great guy, but he is not an engineer. Over and over again in pro cycling someone will come along that is not neurotic about maintaining the equipment status quo and picks up an innovation that gives them a winning advantage and subsequently changes the sport forever. The intuitions of the average pro cyclist is one of the last things I would consult when making equipment decisions. They favor tradition and sensations over data most of the time.

[kgt]

Bikes are neither fast nor slow, riders are. If you enjoy gathering data provided by dummies in wind tunnels you are free to do so. If you want to know what really matters in top level racing where actual people compete then you better listen to Walzer IMHO.

[Calnago]

So, I guess in the end we are all left to choose...
On the one hand, we have "tradition and sensations". On the other we have "data". Hmmmm....
Tradition and sensations...

Data...



Stay thirsty my friends

[MRM]

So stupid...

"Traditions and sensations"


"Data"


Clearly science and reason have not helped...

[Calnago]

Touché! Lol

[tranzformer]

Canyon's team liaison Andreas Walzer:
"The aero bike or the climbing bike? Di2 or mechanical transmission? 40mm rims or 60mm? The fixed, one-piece carbon cockpit, or the greater field of adjustment offered by a conventional aluminium bar and stem? For Andreas Walzer, Canyon's team liaison to Katusha and Movistar, it is almost entirely a matter of rider psychology. “The riders have to believe, and this is more important than anything else,” he says. “If they are confident that they have the best material, that they have chosen it, that they have changed the position of the levers, for example, then they are ready."

https://rouleur.cc/journal/bicycles/pro ... ate-cf-slx

and:
“For sure, there is something going on in a rider’s head,” he smiles, a gleam in his eye. “If a bike is pretty and they like it, then it is also fast.”

https://rouleur.cc/journal/bicycles/tea ... eas-walzer

Does Andreas Walzer and kgt believe a rider would be faster on a climb on a 6.8 kg bike or a 13.6 kg bike in a TdF climbing stage or climbing TT? Or maybe all that matters is riders psychology, so forget about the added 6.8 kg they are dragging up a steep climb. Forget about adequate nutrition, as long as they believe they are Superman, they have no need for proper nutrition during a stage. Water and proper hydration? That is for weak men. Only the strong will survive, no need for water.

If only it was belief that could make us do things.

"I believe I can fly
I believe I can touch the sky
I think about it every night and day
Spread my wings and fly away
I believe I can soar
I see me running through that open door
I believe I can fly
I believe I can fly
I believe I can fly"

It will happen soon enough fellow members. I have the belief and psychology to make it happen. I will fly one day with wings.

[RyanH]

Bar a few people here, we are not top level racers. Those of us considering an aero bike are believers (for lack of a better word), so thus, we'll get the psychological benefit that you are using as an argument against. That argument/point becomes moot.