Real world weight saving?

[mr4fox]

A full bottle weighs about 450g (1 lb). Do you feel a difference between having a half bottle and full bottle? I'm extremely fussy about my bikes and I don't feel that difference.

I can feel it when im climbing hard out of the saddle. the bike feels that little bit more sluggish. but cant notice it on the flat and not really while climbing seated. My power vs time on longer intervals feels it. But i usually ride with 2x 900ml bottles....dehydration will slow you down even more;)

[rpenmanparker]

Weight savings does not have to cost on average more than $1/g. Light wheels are the cheapest place to save weight if you stay with alloy rims. FSA and SRAM are the keys to reasonably priced light components.

[HammerTime2]

But i usually ride with 2x 900ml bottles.

900 ml bottles? Where do you get those?

[prendrefeu]

Do you feel the weight difference? That's up to the individual.

But, as all of the folks who point to analytical training, power meters and even aero gains will tell you: everything matters, your feelings don't matter.
So yes, weight matters. It absolutely matters. Just as everything else is thought of as "matters" then why exclude weight?

Does the weight difference matter? Always. Every gram matters, even if the actual calculated effect is very small, no matter how small, it still matters in the physics of efficiency on the bike. Even if that 'difference' comes out to .0001% that's still .0001% as opposed to 0%.
Every gram counts, every gram matters. It always matters. Cumulative gains through cumulative weight losses.

Does weight matter in relation to other things like training or aero qualities or stiffness or strength? The answer is that it also and always matters.
A super aero but heavy-ass bike will not be as efficient as a bike that is both aero and light.
A super stiff stem can be pure iron and be ridiculously heavy, but a stiff-enough stem that is made as light as possible while maximizing stiffness will be far superior.
...and so on. The word 'and' is crucial. Aero is not ignored, nor is strength, nor is stiffness, nor is weight. All are important factors to maximize to the best extent possible according to one's priority without ignoring another factor's effects on the efficiency of the bicycle.

So weight should not be completely ignored. It matters. It always matters. Does it matter if you "feel" the weight difference or no? No, it does not. Your "feelings" of weight don't matter, reality does. Mass has a basis of actual, quantifiable reality, just like any other measurement that is quantifiable. It matters.

Whether you want to pay for weight losses or create them yourself (through tuning and selective editing), that's up to you and up to your OWN decision about how much you have in budget, whether time or money. Figure out how much you are willing to spend on a component, whether it be calculated in $/g, ¥/g, €/g, whatever monetary unit per gram, or time, or both time and money. It's up to you and only you, just like everything else in life. You need to make your own decisions.

But regardless of your decision, whether you care about weight or not, Reality does not give a flying rat's ass about your feelings about it. Weight always matters.

Does weight matter?
YES IT MATTERS.
IT ALWAYS MATTERS.

Period.

[mr4fox]

But i usually ride with 2x 900ml bottles.

900 ml bottles? Where do you get those?

Well said Prendrefeu.

HammetTime2, I get them at my local sports chain. The brand is C4 but I get the feeling that C4 is just some Chinese stuff that only this sports chain imports into Norway. They're meant to be 1L bottles but I can only ever fit a bit over 900ml (on my scales). Awesome for training though. And I swear I hurt less the day after races when I use them. I really think there's more to hydration than most give it credit for.

I for one would much rather have a 1kg lighter bike with an extra liter of watet on board. So at he end of a race when you ditch the bottles your not only hydrated better than the competition but your on a lighter bike too

[kgt]

Everything matters, of course. The question is what actually matters in order for PLuKE to see 'real world difference, in accelerations or a few odd climbs'.

The answer is investing in training is what only matters. Investing in loosing 200gr from his bike does not matter actually.
That does not mean he cannot enjoy the hobby of wweenism of course.

[HammerTime2]

mr4fox, hmm, is this the nominally 1 liter bottle you use http://www.cafepress.com/+c4_stainless_water_bottle_10l,733464370?

"Made of 18/8, food-grade stainless steel" Is this really steel, and if so, how much does it weigh? Or are you using something else?

The sport water bottles listed at http://www.cafepress.com/+c4+water-bottles?cat=203869 are listed as being 0.75 L, which is a more standard size for large cycling water bottle.

[mr4fox]

Rofl!! Stainless steel...I'm a weight weenie!!
No, they arent the ones. I've never seen this C4 outside of norway and i only know to sports chains here that carry thier stuff. Pretty sure its just their own brand stamped on some cheap chines stuff that import themselves. And i bet both chains of stores are owned be the same parent company.

My bottles look very similar to these...only are cheaper
http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/ZEFAL-MAGNUM-10 ... nav=SEARCH

[prendrefeu]

Everything matters, of course. The question is what actually matters in order for PLuKE to see 'real world difference, in accelerations or a few odd climbs'.

Yes, it does. Any effect, no matter how small, is a REAL WORLD affect even if you can't feel it. PERIOD. Did you not read about the part of feelings? Physics doesn't give a damn about a rider's feelings of whether they feel an improvement or not. Physics (non-academic) is reality based. In fact it doesn't matter if the rider is doing a climb every day or once in 5 years, it doesn't matter if the mountain is long and gradual or short and vertical - it doesn't matter in what conditions the person is riding (so long it is above water, on land, like a normal air-breathing person would), the affects of performance improvement in equipment is always present to some degree. That degree may vary, but it is never zero. 'Real world' ? That's reality. The moment a cyclist decides to realize they're subject to real world conditions, ie reality, is the moment they stop being delusional about the performance of their equipment (ie, "oh this feels so much lighter, even though I know it isn't" "I know that light handlebar will perform better than my aluminum one, but I feel like I can trust the aluminum one more"... that's just self-induced delusion)

This was clearly explained, as was allowing the OP, or anyone, their own decision making into whether they want to spend that money/time or not. It's 100% up to them, but will the improvement have REAL WORLD affects? YES IT DAMN WELL WILL, NO MATTER HOW SMALL. Will those improvements always exist no matter where on the spectrum a rider decides to spend their time or money? Yes, they will. Whether the rider/owner wants to take that opportunity to improve their equipment their own decision.

[kgt]

It does not need to get too 'philosophical'.

Just a small remark: feelings, psychology (self-confidence, stress etc.) are parts of the real world as well and affect performance much more than a bike's weight.

[prendrefeu]

Again, feelings don't matter if you're asking about reality.

Seriously, can we stop this delusion about 'feelings' having an impact on the performance of equipment? 'Feelings' have an impact on the performance of the human body, they don't affect the performance of a physical object. Do you really think a component is going to perform less one day because the rider isn't feeling well? Seriously? Do you live in an animated cartoon world?

This isn't a 'philosophical' discussion, it's REALITY.

Let's go through a scenario:
Rider buys a new set of wheels that is 100g lighter than his previous. Everything else stays the same.
First ride out, Rider is feeling happy and 'inspired' (all feelings) and records his time on a familiar route. He notices an improvement in time, even if it is a second or a minute, it doesn't matter - time on this course improved.

A week later, Rider is feeling depressed because of some other personal reason, or maybe he's sick (frankly it doesn't matter, reality doesn't give a fck), and he does the same route with the same equipment. Weather and traffic conditions are the same. He notices his time decreased.

Has the improvement of his equipment suddenly disappeared? Nope. Still there.
Has his psychology or mindset changed? Maybe, but it doesn't matter for "real world" results.

Over the course of infinite time, if the Rider does this loop everyday under varying conditions of environment or self psychology, the improvement to his time will be present.

Period.

Absolute reality, whether you are a scientist, religious person, goth emo teenager, housewife, roided up gym rat, or any type of human being anywhere or in any state of living existence: feelings are transient. You are not your feelings. They come and go. Fck whether you "feel" any improvement or not on your day-to-day mental landscape, the reality is that the improvement is there no matter how small when the equipment is improved.

Does that mean a person favors equipment upgrades and negates improving their training? Only if they're a dumbass.
Equipment improvement and self improvement (training, technique, skillset) both matter. The bike stays still against a wall and has its capabilities whether you ride it or not. It's that lump of flesh that powers it all. The engine (human body) needs to improve just as the mechanism to actuate its power (the bike) needs to improve with efficiency in - oh guess what - REAL WORLD CONDITIONS.

Final note: improvement of the self (human, you!) is not just the body, it's also the mental state. Guess what happens when a person has a healthy mind and healthy emotional sense of self? Their functions, whether at work or play, are not affected by external emotional issues.
Guess what happens to the 'affects' of 'feelings' ? They go out the window and into the trash bin.

[kgt]

You are already contradicting yourself:

"Again, feelings don't matter if you're asking about reality."

"First ride out, Rider is feeling happy and 'inspired' (all feelings) and records his time on a familiar route. He notices an improvement in time, even if it is a second or a minute, it doesn't matter - time on this course improved."

So, 'improvement in time' is not reality?

[mr4fox]

kgt and prendrefeu i agree with both of you 100%. physics matters. psychology matters too. but i dont think this is what the OP wanted to know.

To the OP - If the Deda Supperlegera stem is significantly stiffer/more flexi than your current stem then its possible you may feel some difference in handling/front end stiffness after you upgrade, but realistically you probably wont unless its a big difference...especially if your new to cycling. It is possible you may feel less road buzz with the new seat post if your current seat post happens to be Aluminium (?) - carbon tends to dampen road buzz better than aluminium.

I doubt you will feel a big difference by dropping 130g but you might feel some difference. If you do then i bet you will notice it mostly while climbing out of the saddle...but sounds like you dont do much of that. Doubt you would feel or measure a difference on the flat...although physics does tell us you will need to expend more energy to propel that extra 130g during the course of a ride, realistically, you wont notice it.

If the short sharp climbs you regularly ride on are only a couple minutes long then you will be hard pressed to measure any time difference with any accuracy without a power meter. by that i mean maybe you will climb a matter of seconds faster (maybe 5 maybe 15 but id guess nearer 5) but without a power meter and weighing yourself regularly (and paying attention to how much water is in your giant water bottles you will never know if it was just wind, or some other variable. Add that 130g savings to other weight savings and you start to see a bigger (more expensive!) picture. in a race the few seconds difference up a hill may make a big difference if it means you hang with the break or not. Or if you're climbing more meters over the course of a ride/race then you may end up saving some significant amount of energy which may effect performance. After all most people can burn calories faster than they can absorb them.

Personally i love adding new bits to my bikes. i find it motivating and inspiring.

PS if your talking about Dura Ace 9000 cassette....there are cheaper ways of saving weight. plus a lot of people have had problems with the cassette spiders breaking on them. Shimano updated the design but i still had one break on me....keep your receipt!

[prendrefeu]

You are already contradicting yourself:

"Again, feelings don't matter if you're asking about reality."

"First ride out, Rider is feeling happy and 'inspired' (all feelings) and records his time on a familiar route. He notices an improvement in time, even if it is a second or a minute, it doesn't matter - time on this course improved."

So, 'improvement in time' is not reality?

Here's a reality: you are selectively picking parts of what I wrote to support your argument while ignoring the portions of what I wrote which explain things fully. Go back and read, please and stop ignoring reality.

NO ONE can tell another person how they should feel, or whether they will feel anything. That's idiocy.

Person A: "How do I feel today?"
Person B, incorrect answer "I think you will feel this way"
Person B, correct answer "I don't know how the f*ck you feel today, you tell me. I am not you"

Person A: "Will I feel a weight difference in this bike part?"
Person B, incorrect answer "Yes you will notice."
Person B, incorrect answer "No you won't notice"
Person B, correct answer "Maybe you will maybe you won't, but the reality is that the performance of your equipment will improve, I AM NOT YOU. YOU ARE YOU. IT IS UP TO YOU, ON ANY GIVEN DAY, TO FIGURE OUT WHETHER YOU 'FEEL' OR 'NOTICE' SOMETHING OR NOT."

Person A: "Will my time vary based on how I feel?"
Person B, correct answer "Yes."

Person A: "Will my time improve based on equipment improvement if all else is equal?"
Person B, correct answer "Yes."

Person A: "Does feelings matter?"
Person B, incorrect answer: "Yes, feelings totally affect the performance of your equipment"
Person B, correct answer "The performance of your equipment IS NOT EVER AFFECTED BY YOUR FEELINGS. Your OWN performance is affected by your feelings"

KGT, please read.

To anyone who says to another person "you will feel 100g difference" or "you won't feel 100g difference" just stop. Seriously, stop. YOU can not tell another person whether they will feel something or not. You are not them. Each person has their own level of sensitivity to things, and that is also dependent on their momentary emotional state. Regardless of that, reality says that a change did take place. Physical reality.


Please stop the delusion and stop telling people whether they will feel something or not. Let people 'feel' for themselves.

[Calnago]

Hmmm... Having a nice light bike is all well and good, but when it gets too light I can definitely feel it, and not in a good way. It gets sketchy. I have found I am far more cautious on a descent when I have been on superlight parts (wheels, stems, bars, etc). So much so I have actually gone with parts than in some cases are heavier just because they are less sketchy when you ride them.
I am 200lbs by the way. Makes a difference when selecting parts.