Being fussy - Spacers/Stem quantity/length

[highdraw]

Interesting re: Campy shifters. I think it looks much better as I have it, personally, and I think I'd find those examples uncomfortable. I may have a play though.

Thanks for all the comments so far. I think the slightly tapered 10mm spacer I have (came as stock on my old BMC) makes a difference too.

You just don't know...lol. Your sense of aesthetic simply doesn't match set ups in pro cycling. Vast majority have their hoods angled up with hooks pointing slightly down. Guys that ride bikes for a living understand ergonomics. So your aesthetic sense of normalcy doesn't comport with how pros ride their bikes...which is OK...but your hood position promotes an unhealthy wrist rotation versus a shake hands position on the hoods. I can post countless bikes of hoods angled up on modern bikes.
Your position is the exception and not the rule...which btw is fine. Also a slammed stem convention you seek or choosing the best angle stem to achieve a 'pro look' is a silly pursuit as well...as you get dropped by the guy with the riser stem. You aren't a pro and your set up shouldn't necessarily replicate one. Chasing a lack of stem spacers is like a woman shopping for the perfect pair of high heels to match her blue dress...nothing more.

Below is pictorial illustrating why your position is ergonomically undesirable and a few different pros with a considerable slant to their hood position because it places the wrists in a much more natural position:

[AJS914]

When hoods are pointing to the sky like that I tend to think that the top tube and stem are too long. It looks hard to shift from the drops. The ergonomics also don't look good for a standing/climbing position.

Watching the Tour this year I see a lot of pros riding almost exclusively on the hoods. Contrasted to pro cycling 30 years ago lots of pros were riding in the drops. They used to run much less drop.

[highdraw]

When hoods are pointing to the sky like that I tend to think that the top tube and stem are too long. It looks hard to shift from the drops. The ergonomics also don't look good for a standing/climbing position.

Watching the Tour this year I see a lot of pros riding almost exclusively on the hoods. Contrasted to pro cycling 30 years ago lots of pros were riding in the drops. They used to run much less drop.

Pros can set up their bikes anyway they want. You may have your opinion but mine is since I chose this position as ergonomically the best, I side with them and not others that have some pseudo convention of aesthetic they need to adhere to without an ergonomic basis. I have been at this for 4 decades and also rode old school quilled bikes with a more waterfall bar shape and hoods positioned more down the waterfall. New bar position as being lower as you say with higher hood position does place the hoods at the same vertical height as Merckx with hoods in the middle of the bar curve in profile. But...new convention has come along for the simple reason that old school was non-ergonomic. Also hook position is not much different between current and old pros either. Current riders with more drop and higher hood position ride shallow bars. Old school higher handlebar position with lower hoods had deeper drop hooks. Reality is there isn't a lot...some...difference between net hood and hook vertical height...perhaps just a bit because of the competition of modern times and training geared to optimize flexibility.

[goodboyr]

Always considered that there should be a smooth, flat transition between bar tops and start of hoods. Some of these have a trough in there. As for rotation, that is a personal preference.

[ergott]

When hoods are pointing to the sky like that I tend to think that the top tube and stem are too long. It looks hard to shift from the drops. The ergonomics also don't look good for a standing/climbing position.

Watching the Tour this year I see a lot of pros riding almost exclusively on the hoods. Contrasted to pro cycling 30 years ago lots of pros were riding in the drops. They used to run much less drop.

Unless you have gigantically long thumbs you simply can't reach the thumb levers with that position. I don't have EPS (longer thumb lever) so that simply won't work for me. I'm in the drops too much.

He's much taller than me and I assume has longer fingers/thumbs so I imagine it's not an issue for him. TB isn't exactly shy of using the hooks when he's in the wind.

My bar/lever setup never let me down and I have more than enough miles to say it works for me. Just as you can find lots of pictures of levers pointed to the sky you can find lots more traditionally set up.

Mine (no, I'm not comparing myself to any of these people!) There's just many ways to do this and if it works for you then so be it.


Quintana


Rowe


Contador

[highdraw]

I don't have gigantically long thumbs..wear a size L glove...and I hear the common refrain all the time about Campy being hard to reach the thumb lever. Honestly the thumb lever is one of the principle reasons I ride Campy...sprinting in the drops and easier to dial just the right gear in the heat of the battle. I ride my hoods high like several pros I show. That's about all we have in common. But good counterpoint ergott with the bikes you post...different than the bunch I post..yours...a bit more old school which is less comfortable to me.

Lance rode old school until he didn't.
Old and newer Lance:

[mrgray]

OP i think you're current setup looks great and 0 degree would look a tad dorky. comfort, that's another thing.

these thoughts about rotation are very interesting to me and i am going to try what highdraw has highlighted as i am getting right wrist pain at the moment.

[Devon]

The point that most posters here are missing is the fact I'm 6'5 and run a seat post at (almost) the maximum extension. While tilting the hoods back gives an improved wrist position for the average rider, when you're taller, it twists your wrists backwards and is agonising. With my current positions, my wrists are perfectly straight and I have no comfort or pain issues.

[highdraw]

The point that most posters here are missing is the fact I'm 6'5 and run a seat post at (almost) the maximum extension. While tilting the hoods back gives an improved wrist position for the average rider, when you're taller, it twists your wrists backwards and is agonising. With my current positions, my wrists are perfectly straight and I have no comfort or pain issues.

No, I think you are missing the point about ergonomics. I post both Tom Boonen and Bradley Wiggin's bikes among others. Rider height has nothing to do with wrist position dictated by position of the shifter on the handlebar. Both rider's mentioned are within a whisker of your height. I am 6'1" as well with long arms and same with me...I prefer the angled back position based upon the simple rider fit illustration comparing wrist positions of hoods tilted back versus forward....basic geometry. The issue becomes a balance between hood and hook comfort in terms of rotating the handlebar to suit both which is a balance. A further nuance is...hood tilt is more related to saddle to handlebar drop than anything to do with rider height. This is because rider arm angle of attack is affected. The higher the handlebar relative to saddle height, the more acute angle the forearm approaches the hoods and therefore more rearward hood rotation is desired to place the wrist in a more natural position.

In summary, there is a reason why ergonomics have morphed and improved over the past couple of decades...including broader shifter hood surfaces to reduce palm pressure aka psi, a lower handlebar but really the same net hood height due to different positioning of the shifter on the handlebar related to handlebar shape and of course a companion shallower handlebar which matches the deep drop of a higher handlebar for about the same vertical hook height. Net rider position old versus new school is largely unchanged but hand ergonomics are vastly improved...an evolution and appreciated...and of course even related to newer flat top handlebars which are also more aerodynamic.

PS: for all you hand wringers out there which I see on any fast group ride where your hands are falling asleep, change your fit. Above is a start. Bad ergonomics is a killer to anatomy. Too much saddle to bar drop and insufficient flexibility and core strength...and/or lack of saddle setback moving rider CG back placing too much pressure on the hands. It all fits together. Learn about fit and ergonomics, adjust your fit, reintroduce yourself to riding in the drops and get the weight off your hands. Your hands should be to steer the bike and not prop up your torso...a sure recipe for hand pain.

The great Spartacus below in his beautiful position on the bike. Note how neutral his wrist position is.

[Devon]

I feel this post has digressed massively. The original question was about bar height. I am perfectly happy with my hood position.

I'm not a pro, so don't need to look at endless photos of their bikes and copy them. I'm comfortable with my setup, which has been working for me for many years, on multiple bikes.

As stated above, if my levers were tilted back, the thumb lever would become unusable. I've ridden with my bars set up like that in the past and subsequently ended rides in pain, and discomfort.

In addition, all but one of those photos are showing C shape bars, not compacts. The only bike with compacts is Quintana's, which has the levers set up the same way mine are.

Wiggins also has near enough a flat top profile, however it cannot be compared due to the Shimano shifter being a completely different shape.

[Devon]

I hear the common refrain all the time about Campy being hard to reach the thumb lever. Honestly the thumb lever is one of the principle reasons I ride Campy...sprinting in the drops and easier to dial just the right gear in the heat of the battle.

Exactly my view. None of that broken floppy brake lever nonsense!

[highdraw]

I feel this post has digressed massively. The original question was about bar height. I am perfectly happy with my hood position.

I'm not a pro, so don't need to look at endless photos of their bikes and copy them. I'm comfortable with my setup, which has been working for me for many years, on multiple bikes.

As stated above, if my levers were tilted back, the thumb lever would become unusable. I've ridden with my bars set up like that in the past and subsequently ended rides in pain, and discomfort.

In addition, all but one of those photos are showing C shape bars, not compacts. The only bike with compacts is Quintana's, which has the levers set up the same way mine are.

Wiggins also has near enough a flat top profile, however it cannot be compared due to the Shimano shifter being a completely different shape.

OK...well good luck with finding the best stem and spacer stack to satisfy your aesthetic sense. I am having the same trouble picking out what color socks to wear to match my kit this morning...not..but didn't think a dedicated thread was appropriate.

Seriously, yes, there is much personal preference...including those that flip their handlebars over and ride in a cruiser position...lol. What matters is you are happy with your set up.
PS: Wiggins riding Shimano...or Sram for that matter has nothing to do with optimal hood/hand ergonomic position. Same applies to all shifter/hood designs which only vary slightly.

[ergott]

@highdraw

Just came back from ride and was paying attention to this.

My hands are more like in the bottom two pics here. Never any discomfort or numbness. If I were to rotate up I would use a longer stem and more bar drop to keep my hands in the same place, but more like the grip of the top hood pic. Not sure how I would like being in the hooks. Would be an interesting experiment someday.

[highdraw]

Hi Ergott,
What I find interesting if not a bit astonishing is...how different each of are in terms of our desire to experiment. I have owned 50 road bikes and to this day in my advancing years...I ride about everyday and about 200 miles a week...I have constantly experimented with different handlebars, lever position on the bars...drop...reach...saddle setback etc. A constant search for the holy grail...really thousands of iterations tried over the years. The great Eddy Merckx who is encyclopedic about fit would have different frames made by changing a dimension by 1mm. The consummate perfectionist. The other notable thing is...just changing handlebar rotation by 2 degrees completely changes the load path on the hands and balance of weight on the saddle versus handlebar. This stuff as you know is very very nuanced. No fitter is going to give me what I need.
The best line related to another sport equally as nuanced about fit and swing mechanics I grew up playing...golf relates to a story about Lee Trevino. Lee was asked why he never took lessons because he played with such an unusual swing. For those golfers out there he is a profoundly shut face player and really traps the ball...and had a very penetrating ball flight in spite of left to right shot pattern...which boded well growing up playing in the wind in Texas. Lee's response...one of my favorites is...I never met a teacher I couldn't beat...lol. Another related story is...greatness can't be achieved by a teacher. Yes, a teacher can help and perhaps expose an array of possibilities but rather...each one of us have to find our own way through experimentation. Confidence is achieved by trying 'everything' and then deciding what works best. Trevino who would routinely hit 500 golf balls a day would say...the answer is in the dirt. I believe the same applies to road bike fit. So did Merckx who was never satisfied well into his career.

PS: a finer point is...yes you may need a 10mm longer stem if you rotate your bars more rearward to create a more ergonomic shake hands position with the hoods...but...you would not need more drop in the hooks. Yes, the hoods do raise when rotating the handlebar rearward. Rotating the handlebar back however actually lengthens the distance to the hooks.
My sense is by what you wrote is you don't ride much in the hooks. I set my bikes up to ride in the drops comfortably...where I like to be when pulling as an alternative to extreme elbow bend on the hoods shown by Spartacus...which FWIW is more aerodynamic. I ride in the drops probably 40% of the time...perhaps more. I can get more flat backed by placing my palms around the front of the levers with hands on the hoods however...a nice stretched position close to riding the rivet where I can rotate my pelvis more to get more aero.

Below is a pic of old school. How times have changed with shape of shifters, shape of handlebars and position of shifters on a given handlebar. Look how unnatural this very aero rider's hand position is for support on the hoods. That has all changed...lower handlebars...higher hood position on the bar...straight ramp from bar top to hood...and many rotate their bars rearward to have the friendliest straight wrist position.

[lannes]

Maybe you could use something like the FSA k-wing compact bars, the tops are angled upwards from the stem to make it a bit higher, this might allow to drop a 5mm spacer.

http://www.fullspeedahead.com/products/ ... handlebar/