Titanium Road Bike Advice

Back by popular demand, the general all-things Road forum!

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eaglejackson
Posts: 259
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:26 am
Location: PNW

by eaglejackson

I live on the west coast and traveling to Tom was a long way that seemed unnecessary.

What felt right on the trainer with a good fit did not work out when I got the bike and rode it. The top tube was too long and the bike never really felt comfortable. That's the risk you take with a custom fit. Unless you really need a custom fit -- you're more than two standard deviations from normal -- I highly suggest saving your money and getting a stock bike. There is a wide enough range of geometries with stock bikes that you are very likely to find one that fits.

The biggest lesson I learned is that if you really want to get a good fit, you need to go one a bunch of rides with your fitter as he observes your position, make tweaks, and you can determine what really fits.

AJS914
Posts: 5397
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

Jcgill wrote:
Was wondering what was the best way to calculate with any precision if I should get a 54, 55, or 56cm moots frame.



Figure out the stack and reach you need and then go from there.

http://bb2stem.blogspot.com

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cyclenutnz
Posts: 854
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:18 am
Location: Cambridge, New Zealand
Contact:

by cyclenutnz

Jcgill wrote:The 54cm madone and caad10 fit me well, and i have no complaints.
Do not think in need custom geometry, that is just how kish builds them.


Vamoots CR much taller than CAAD10, especially once you take account of the external headset. If you have the CAAD10 slammed you would be looking at a 50. If you have a few spacers you could get on a 52 with a -17 stem

User avatar
Body
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:34 pm
Location: Zuidholland, the Netherlands

by Body

Since some weeks I got my custom Ti frame. Its made by Rewel in Italy. The service is very good and also the contact.
The price is interesting and worth to let make a frame there. I have already a ti frame, Litespeed but to be honest, this Rewel frame looks much nicer. As soon as the bike is ready I will post it in the other topic.
Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving.
Albert Einstein

LenJ
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:57 pm

by LenJ

eaglejackson wrote:I live on the west coast and traveling to Tom was a long way that seemed unnecessary.

What felt right on the trainer with a good fit did not work out when I got the bike and rode it. The top tube was too long and the bike never really felt comfortable. That's the risk you take with a custom fit. Unless you really need a custom fit -- you're more than two standard deviations from normal -- I highly suggest saving your money and getting a stock bike. There is a wide enough range of geometries with stock bikes that you are very likely to find one that fits.

The biggest lesson I learned is that if you really want to get a good fit, you need to go one a bunch of rides with your fitter as he observes your position, make tweaks, and you can determine what really fits.



I figured it was travel...... But, to nail my fit, I probably would have taken a vacation to the east coast. Tom is an amazing fitter...couple that with his skill at designing the bike around what he sees and it's a home run. I don't know anyone who has gone to the barn and been unhappy with the final bike.

That said, you make a good point about fit being better understood dynamically. I'd add that a rider has to own their fit and work to find the best fit for them. Once they have that, then using that fit as a reference for a custom builder results in a higher probability of success. This idea that you can go to a fitter (that you may have found by word of mouth) and magically, you'll get a perfect fit is a recipe for a low probability of success IME. At worst, I'd recommend going to two different fitters, get two different fittings, compare them and then query each of the fitter on the underlying reasons for the differences and then make the choice. At least then you get some knowledge and you increase the probability of a better fit.

IME, YMMV

Len

LenJ
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:57 pm

by LenJ

AJS914 wrote:
Jcgill wrote:
Was wondering what was the best way to calculate with any precision if I should get a 54, 55, or 56cm moots frame.



Figure out the stack and reach you need and then go from there.

http://bb2stem.blogspot.com


I think that's too narrow.

At a minimum, you need Seat height, seat setback, reach, & drop

Translating that to a particular geometry then requires a comparator like this

http://gearinches.com/blog/misc/bike-ge ... comparator
Or this
http://www.bicyclecalculator.co.uk/createamap.htm

IME

pdmtong
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:31 am

by pdmtong

Before you do anything please figure out what eTT you prefer.

A 54 or a 56 can feel fine on a trainer or on flat but once you point it downhill you will quickly realize if you would rather be more stretched out (want the 56) or are too stretched out (want the 54)

You could also mimc the eTT of the proposed bikes by changing stems on your current

Moots is great for stock sizing and resale.

Note the STA on the Moots is 73.5d. If your baseline frame has a STA of 73.0d the Moots will effectively be about 5mm longer TT due to the change in STA.

LenJ
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:57 pm

by LenJ

pdmtong wrote:Before you do anything please figure out what eTT you prefer.

A 54 or a 56 can feel fine on a trainer or on flat but once you point it downhill you will quickly realize if you would rather be more stretched out (want the 56) or are too stretched out (want the 54)

You could also mimc the eTT of the proposed bikes by changing stems on your current

Moots is great for stock sizing and resale.

Note the STA on the Moots is 73.5d. If your baseline frame has a STA of 73.0d the Moots will effectively be about 5mm longer TT due to the change in STA.



Focusing on ett ignores STA and HTA....... which can totally change your fit. You can't take one measurement in isolation IMO.

Len

JEgbers
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:53 am

by JEgbers

The moots vamoots CR is a great bike especially for stronger riders, I have been on a 60cm standard Frameset for 5 weeks and am loving the directness of the drive train, in my opinion the breezer drop-outs add to the rear end stiffness and durability, for sizing I suggest selecting effective top tube that will be similar to your cannondale based on 120mm stem this should give you enough flexibility in positioning.

Sent from my D5833 using Tapatalk

pdmtong
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:31 am

by pdmtong

LenJ wrote:
pdmtong wrote:Before you do anything please figure out what eTT you prefer.

A 54 or a 56 can feel fine on a trainer or on flat but once you point it downhill you will quickly realize if you would rather be more stretched out (want the 56) or are too stretched out (want the 54)

You could also mimc the eTT of the proposed bikes by changing stems on your current

Moots is great for stock sizing and resale.

Note the STA on the Moots is 73.5d. If your baseline frame has a STA of 73.0d the Moots will effectively be about 5mm longer TT due to the change in STA.



Focusing on ett ignores STA and HTA....... which can totally change your fit. You can't take one measurement in isolation IMO.

Len


Agreed completely. Waffling between a 54 or 56 has to be resolved somehow...so once the STA is normalized between choices, now figure out the eTT preference. hence my comment on the 73.5d STA of Moots versus others who use a 73.0d STA in the target sizes


variance in HTA will affect steering feel more so than fit.

eaglejackson
Posts: 259
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:26 am
Location: PNW

by eaglejackson

Lenj, in retrospect, yes, I should have gone to Tom's place and gotten fitted by him. I should have brought my old bike with me and done some rides with him so he could see the fit dynamically and make the necessary adjustments so the final fit was right. The lesson I learned is that I can't just get a fit on a trainer or other fit machine, even by an excellent fitter, and then order a custom bike. You are exactly right that the rider needs to own the fit; you can't go to a fitter and expect a magical outcome. Going to multiple fitters is also a good idea. I've done that since. I also find that fit varies during the season. Early season before I'm in form and flexible, I prefer something a little shorter and higher, and mid season longer and lower. Your bike should be in the middle of your fit range so you have flexibility to modify.

User avatar
wheelsONfire
Posts: 6283
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:15 am
Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

This is how i have had it to!

I can be fine on a trainer, but when i am cycling for real, i need to adjust myself.

I also have a bad back, so i can alter my pose on the bike, which make me urge for a saddle re-position.

For the OP, i also ordered a custom bike and went for size the builder told me would be same stack and reach i wanted,

but the TT would be longer as i needed that. That bike proved too long and too high.

So as i could not sell it, he took it back and i paid a lower amount for an exchange size.

To be honest, if i had ordered a custom bike today, i had ordered a another geometry still.

Also there are other things i have noted which is not mentioned here.

The stiffness of the bike and the balance of stiffness front and rear.

A frame/ bike can be stiffer in the rear then in the front or vice versa.

Also there is BB-C to fork if you have long feets.

Chainstay lenght preference, tire/ wheel clearance (do you like to run fat tires for instance).

A custom frame should be made so that it has "the feel" and size you ask for, or it's useless going for custom.

There are off-shelf bikes if you just look at sizes and not brands that will fit most of us.

I believe when you order a custom bike, you should really pin down precise what you really look for.

This since you may get something that rides in a manner you might not really like as well as you think.

I prefer a bike that offers comfort (and to me this is a concept. Some guys says it's in the tires only.

That is not the full truth. The frame should work with both stiff wheelsets and comfortable wheelsets.

Many ti frames can actually be too stiff and come out unbalanced. It's not just a magic metal.

Honestly, if i had ordered a ti frame today or looked to ordered one, i think i'd rather had bought a super light steel frame.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.

highdraw

by highdraw

eaglejackson wrote:I live on the west coast and traveling to Tom was a long way that seemed unnecessary.

What felt right on the trainer with a good fit did not work out when I got the bike and rode it. The top tube was too long and the bike never really felt comfortable. That's the risk you take with a custom fit. Unless you really need a custom fit -- you're more than two standard deviations from normal -- I highly suggest saving your money and getting a stock bike. There is a wide enough range of geometries with stock bikes that you are very likely to find one that fits.

The biggest lesson I learned is that if you really want to get a good fit, you need to go one a bunch of rides with your fitter as he observes your position, make tweaks, and you can determine what really fits.

Agree. And to add, I believe that a rider only begins to understand their best fit after 10 years of serious riding with a lot of experimentation and maybe 3-4 bikes including trying different stem lengths with +/- rise...different saddle setbacks etc. Then an optimal stack/reach target is established. Going to a fitter or two for the holy grail to me is a fallacy.
For those that want greater veracity in fit starting out...I suggest a fit using a powermeter to determine what position establishes the best power numbers on a trainer. This of course isn't necessarily the best fit for aerodynamics either. Best fit really takes years to develop in my experience.
I completely agree that a rider needs to be 2 std. deviations from mean in terms of proportion and/or height to consider a custom frame. Further I wish I had a nickel for every custom frame I have seen with a big stack of spacers under the stem. ;)

highdraw

by highdraw

wheelsONfire wrote:This is how i have had it to!

I can be fine on a trainer, but when i am cycling for real, i need to adjust myself.

I also have a bad back, so i can alter my pose on the bike, which make me urge for a saddle re-position.

For the OP, i also ordered a custom bike and went for size the builder told me would be same stack and reach i wanted,

but the TT would be longer as i needed that. That bike proved too long and too high.

So as i could not sell it, he took it back and i paid a lower amount for an exchange size.

To be honest, if i had ordered a custom bike today, i had ordered a another geometry still.

Also there are other things i have noted which is not mentioned here.

The stiffness of the bike and the balance of stiffness front and rear.

A frame/ bike can be stiffer in the rear then in the front or vice versa.

Also there is BB-C to fork if you have long feets.

Chainstay lenght preference, tire/ wheel clearance (do you like to run fat tires for instance).

A custom frame should be made so that it has "the feel" and size you ask for, or it's useless going for custom.

There are off-shelf bikes if you just look at sizes and not brands that will fit most of us.

I believe when you order a custom bike, you should really pin down precise what you really look for.

This since you may get something that rides in a manner you might not really like as well as you think.

I prefer a bike that offers comfort (and to me this is a concept. Some guys says it's in the tires only.

That is not the full truth. The frame should work with both stiff wheelsets and comfortable wheelsets.

Many ti frames can actually be too stiff and come out unbalanced. It's not just a magic metal.

Honestly, if i had ordered a ti frame today or looked to ordered one, i think i'd rather had bought a super light steel frame.

I like how you think about bicycles. Having owned a lot of different Ti and Steel bikes, I too prefer a high end steel bike to the ride of Ti. But that said, with the advent of highly engineered Al frames now which are not available by custom shops because the forming and welding process of the new high end Al bikes from Specialized, Cannondale and Trek are too advanced, my strong preference is Al and btw that includes ride quality as well. For those that haven't ridden a new Allez or CAAD12 or Al Synapse and the Al Emonda, you will be astounded by the ride quality of these bikes which also are available at a fair price and race-able through the CAT range. Lesson here is frame tube section asymmetry trumps material properties.
It could be argued that symmetric aka round tube Al bikes of yesteryear were behind the best example of steel and Ti...certainly in ride quality. All has changed. Al bikes today have almost the same differential section modulus of carbon bikes. Of course heads up, carbon wins the material comparison. But Al to me beats both Steel and Ti for the simple reason it can be formed with the properties that bike designer prefer.
All said If spending big bucks however, to me carbon fiber has no peer for racing. Weight and stiffness...even with good ride quality, rules the day. But for weekend warrior on a budget, new Al bikes win in my experience.

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