Wireless Hydraulic Braking Systems

[spookyload]

Have you ridden hydraulic disc brakes? They have very little force feedback if you are riding a high quality system.

In fact I just got off my bike with Shimano R785 Di2 and Ice Tech 160mm front/140mm rear. What makes it so good is the fact that I really do feel the grip level in the tires. Nothing to do with force feedback at all. I can modulate my rear brake just up to lockup much easier than any road caliper I've ever used including Dura Ace, Super Record, and Force 22.

If you have hydro or access to it, try that simple test. Brake with just the rear wheel and see how much better that system is. Now think of all the added noise of a remote system that would get in the way of that. And for what?

When I mention redundancy it's not just the batteries. You need redundancy in the sensors all around so there are no lost packets. Seriously, read my other post.

So we are past the constant battery drain now? Road feel is what you say can't happen now. Got it. Just to clarify, that is the argument people in the 80's said would miss from index shifting compared to friction shifting. That seems to have worked itself OK.

Trying to guess what technology will exist in a decade is fruitless. The cheapest iPhone 6 has more storage and computing power than a home computer had ten years ago. Technology is exponential. Di2 was first used in the Tour in 2009 by a few teams. Now most riders use it. That is only six years of growth. Where will electronic shifting be in four more years?

The industry makes changes to keep itself developing. More gears, improved aero, more carbon....I asked it before...why wouldn't wireless brakes be on the horizon?

Here is a link from WW in 2005. Lots of common themes we are discussing now. They seemed to have figured the kinks out though.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14223&hilit=Electronic+shifting

[spookyload]

It certainly shows that you haven't got a handle on the differences between the aero industry and the cycling industry.

Missed this cheap shot, but correct me if I am wrong. Both rely heavily on aeronautical computer modeling, composites, titanium and other rare metals, high stress and lightweight designs...but yeah, the two industries don't have much in common. I guess the comparison between the two fields is a stretch. Nice input to the discussion btw.

[Krackor]

Braking and shifting systems have entirely different risk profiles. Shifting can fail either intermittently or completely and the rider will still be safe, even if their ride is cut short. If braking fails at the wrong moment, the rider is dead. Because of this difference alone, the technological progression of shifting systems cannot possibly be compared to the technological progression of brakes. You misunderstand the problem if you make these comparisons.

There have been plenty of high profile failures of electronic shifting systems in the pro peloton. Despite these, riders continue to use these systems because they can tolerate the risk. Sure, they might lose a race because their derailleur fails, but at least they'll be alive to race again tomorrow. If their prototype wireless braking system fails, their race is over, their career may be over, and in the plausible worst case their life may be over.

Better hope you don't need to brake hard while passing under a high voltage power line. If your wireless shifting system experiences interference, you'll be in the wrong gear for a few seconds. If your wireless braking system experiences interference, you're going headfirst over a guardrail. Do you understand why wireless braking is such a vastly harder problem than wireless shifting?

[prendrefeu]

Spookyload, you might be better off just driving a car. It requires little to no effort, I'm sure you'll be fine.

I am also not a person who says it will never happen. I promise you I will dredge this up in a few years when we are seeing early prototypes of what you are saying will never happen.

Yeah? Go for it. Before you do that, why don't you actually bother to read another person's posts?
Please, please tell me you'll find the "never" in my posts in regards to it actually happening. I'll wait. I'll also place a small wager that you'll misread my one use of "never" as it applied in context, since you're having difficulty actually reading other people's posts or thoughts on the matter.

You might as well dredge up your own posts to figure out why you like automation so much. You really should just drive a car or get an electric-motor bicycle at this point. Press a button - and there, you'll be at 25mph easily. Presto!

Missed this cheap shot, but correct me if I am wrong. Both rely heavily on aeronautical computer modeling, composites, titanium and other rare metals, high stress and lightweight designs...but yeah, the two industries don't have much in common. I guess the comparison between the two fields is a stretch. Nice input to the discussion btw.

Actually you've missed a whole lot more in this thread... and yes, boat design also uses computer modeling, composites, titanium, raremetals, high stress and lightweight designs. So the boat industry uses the same considerations as the bicycle industry? And a multi-tonne large vessel moving at 500+mph at 32,000' carrying hundreds of passengers, tonnes of equipment and electronics and energy supply has the same considerations as a bicycle?
So... by your logic, as you wrote in this thread and with your quote above, how a boat designer makes a boat stop and how an airplane designer makes an airplane stop can also apply to how a bicycle designer makes a bicycle stop? Similar "brake-by-wire" technology, right? And cars coming to a stop, all of the sensors that are utilized in conjunction with that traditional hydraulic brake line (still in use), is the same as making a bicycle stop, right?

The more you continue the more you are appearing to have no grasp of basic physics, scale, and - quite frankly - reality.

[mattr]

but correct me if I am wrong.

You're wrong.

]Nice input to the discussion btw.

Technically I'd struggle to call it a discussion. You've decided that what you can imagine is possible, people either in the industries that will directly influence this "thing" you can imagine or significantly more technically minded have told you why it won't work (in far more detail than it really deserves) yet you seem to be ignoring most of the salient points.

The cheapest iPhone 6 has more storage and computing power than a home computer had ten years ago. Technology is exponential.

The future increase in computing power and storage density has been modeled and calculated with a fair degree of accuracy (20% error maybe?) since the early 90's, nothing about the power of a current iPhone couldn't have been extrapolated fairly easily from the technology of the time for the last ~10 years.

Di2 was first used in the Tour in 2009 by a few teams. Now most riders use it. That is only six years of growth. Where will electronic shifting be in four more years?

It's not 6 years of growth, it's about 50 years of growth. Absolutely nothing in Di2 is unique, or particularly special. Either on the hardware or the software side. It's all swiped from other industries.

And FWIW electronic mechs have been kicking around since the early 90's, that's around 25 years of development in the cycling industry, not 6. And any failure during development was simply a pain in the arse, not potentially fatal.

This whole discussion is getting silly.

I'm out now. I have a Shift By Wire meeting to go and moderate.

[ergott]

So we are past the constant battery drain now? Road feel is what you say can't happen now.

Never mentioned battery drain, but you aren't actually reading the all the posts before you reply anyway.

[Butcher]

Just the amount of energy that would be needed to press the caliper would take a bit of electrons to make that happen. I'm assuming a battery that could provide that amount of electron back up would be heavy and therefore IF this system could make it to production, it would be much heavier than cables or hyd. fluid.

But enough of all this hypothetical nonsense. Wireless braking is alive and well. Many of us have already used it and it's known as a coaster brake. I think we should change the focus of this thread on something that's real.

[joec]

an interesting engineering exercise, but hell would freeze over before you ever got me on a bike with wireless brakes.

[prendrefeu]

Well, wireless braking has been done before - years ago.

And look! It's hydraulic!


The question still remains - WHY? Is it just aesthetic reasons? Or do you want to implement advanced braking technologies?

http://www.bikeradar.com/us/news/articl ... ake-32064/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6SNzAMLDjU

ABS also exists for bicycles... but... again... why?
http://www.budbrake.com/
Do bicycles wheels really 'lock up' unintentionally (ie, not user implemented)?
http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/11/27/han ... rake-pads/
The reviewer states that the ABS is used to prevent endo'ing on a brake lockup. Has anyone here endo'd from braking on their own (ie, not hit anything of any size)?
The reviewer states that turning into corners at speed while holding the brakes was made much better by the ABS system. Does anyone here enter corner/curves and pull their brake levers with a death-grip, then fall over?

Why are these things not being used in the Pro Peloton? Why hasn't Shimano released these concepts yet?!
Why aren't we seeing these things on tourist/rental bicycles at the beach - that may be useful there.
Or maybe why not commuting bicycles? Surely they're being implemented in the Netherlands and Denmark where people commute in poor conditions. Especially women and children. They need ABS!! They need brake-by-wire technology, how else do they expect to come to a stop?

Why can't we save the children?!?!

Other things that we should have invented simply because we either can or need to sell more things to people:
-battery operated battery installer
-wireless remote control knives for the kitchen. Never handle your food prep again!

[Butcher]

I do agree with some of what you are saying, but with that thought process, do we need more gears? We now have 11 and it would not surprise me if 12 is just around the corner. I started riding with 5.

The only think I think that would be nice is the clutter that would be removed with wireless braking. I do not believe it will reduce the weight of the system and due to the liability, I do not think it will ever come anytime too soon.

As for the wireless system that is already proven, just looking at the pump and battery at the fork, it does not look WW approved [but neither does the fork].

[Krackor]

Adding another gear to the cassette doesn't carry an increased risk of death.

[prendrefeu]

Adding gears is not a change in a rider's ability to handle a bicycle.

I'm not sold on Wireless braking. There needs to be a physical backup wherein should an electronic method of deployment fail the actual method of engagement can still be used by the operator without endangering themselves. In a commercially available vehicle, even if the brakes are managed through electronics it still relies upon a physical line between the operator and the actual brake pistons in order to operate.

ABS is a different question. We're looking at mixtures of brake pads and rims (or disks) to get the best braking and 'traction control' I suppose...

[Butcher]

What I'm stating is that pushing the envelop is a good thing, but just because the envelop is pushed, does not mean good will come out of it.

So I believe wireless braking is a waste of time and effort, maybe someday the obstacles will be tackled and it might work. I applaud those that do the unthinkable but that does not mean I would invest my money or life in their ideas.

There were days that people mentioned that an extra gear was a waste and not needed, obviously they were wrong.

[Butcher]

In a commercially available vehicle, even if the brakes are managed through electronics it still relies upon a physical line between the operator and the actual brake pistons in order to operate.

That is not true. Mercedes E Class, CLS [aka Cialis], SL, McLaren SLR, and the Maybach had a brake by wire system that has no physical connection from the pedal to the caliper [in a normal working system]. The Maybach system has two separate brake by wire systems with double everything [but the brake pedal].

And yes, Mercedes phased out the system because it was not worth the issues it caused. Just like wireless braking on a bike.

[joec]

the main thing I dislike about this idea is the lack of feedback/feel, which is a natural by product of a cable/ hydraulic system.