Titanium, can it be improved?

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Poulidor
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by Poulidor

So Moots has been recently sold and I believe it is a good thing. If I had to chose between two frames from two great frame builders, one Ti, one Carbon, same weight for both, I'd go Ti. I can't go into technical specifics because I simply can't, I lack the knowledge to sustain my preference at the molecular level, so to speak. But I like the feel of a Ti frame much better than the feel of a carbon frame. Something about carbon seems to dampen the experience of riding the bicycle on the road. I don't much care for the process of building a carbon frame, either.

But my point is not comparing Ti vs carbon, much less denigrate carbon frames in any way. My question to you cyclists is: Do you think Ti could be improved as a material for building lightweight competitive race bicycle frames? Could you envision a Tour de France team riding Ti frames anytime in the near future? Do you think sensible to imagine a safe 12lbs bicycle with a Ti frame?

Thank you for your opinions.

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prendrefeu
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by prendrefeu

Poulidor wrote:Do you think sensible to imagine a safe 12lbs bicycle with a Ti frame?

Thank you for your opinions.


It's old, but:
Image
https://fairwheelbikes.com/world-light- ... ?chapter=1


Since a lot of components have become lighter in weight and the UCI limit is still 6.8kg, Ti frames do have a potential to become stiffer through better tube design (for example, internal beam running down the length of a tube, essentially making it an I-Beam that is closed off). This of course will increase the weight of the frame. Unfortunately there is little major-market interest in Ti frames as the majority of production in the industry is oriented towards Carbon which is the easiest to produce en masse, and much easier to manipulate for riding qualities either by layup schedule (what fibers go where, what resins are used and how it is created) or the frame's design itself. With little market push, getting the producers of Titanium to create new tube productions is less likely.
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j_gantzer
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by j_gantzer

Ill take a stab at your questions-

TDF- Not likely, there is not enough scalability in good Ti to make the money work to field a TDF level team. The labor and material costs are too high. That being said the performance of the bike itself is totally capable. See- http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/01/ ... lds_359780 Many former pros, including very notorious ones go to Ti bikes after they retire and have to buy their own bikes.


Weight- With carbon you can your higher modulus fibers for a stiffer and lighter bike, but the frame will get more brittle. With Ti you can use a larger diameter thinner walled tube, but there is a practical limit in how thin you can go in wall thickness. That being said it is possible to get a very nice ~1100g Ti frame, IE Moots RSL. The weight is really more about the parts you put on the frame.



-JG @ Moots

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spookyload
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by spookyload

Lotto used to ride the litespeed vortex. http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/tech/200 ... otto.shtml

mariovalentim
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by mariovalentim

I've got my eyes in the new Litespeed T1SL, they said that currently the frame is 1000gr and they were trying to make it sub 1kg but not at the expense of other characteristics. So a 6.8Kg bike is very very doable with non exoctic parts with this frame.

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ergott
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by ergott

Titanium frame costs more in labor and materials than a carbon one. Big boys make more profit with carbon so no, I don't expect it to be in the pro tour anymore.

mariovalentim
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by mariovalentim

just a napkin math of a bespoked lightweight build:

Litespeed T1SL 1000
Enve 1.0 295
EE brakes 169
Mcfk Carbon Stem 83
extralite ultrapost 99
enve 25 wheelset 984
mcfk saddle 76
mcfk handlebar 165
thm clavicula se 291
bb30 89
praxis chainrings 124
red fd 74
red rd 145
red shifter 280
red cassette 166
red chain 246
vittoria corsa cx tubular 554

Total 4840 grams or 10.67 lbs

XCProMD
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by XCProMD

Any idea of that T1SL reliability?

The limits with titanium and steel are fatigue and buckling. In the case of Ti add deflection.

At 2E6 cycles the fatigue resistance of a well executed fillet weld in Ti is around 60MPa. Mitering is crucial as root propagation is something you don't want. A good weld has to crack from fatigue from the toe.

The load spectrum on a bike depends a lot on the user. A pro can beat a thin Ti frame in very little time. The first crack is usually the toe of the weld of the bridge joining the chainstays or the toe of the weld between right chainstay and dropout. MTB's crack at the seat tube-top tube junction as well.

The thinner you go, the higher the stresses are in the material, and as I said, there is only a number of cycles a Ti weld can withstand above 60MPa

mariovalentim
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by mariovalentim

XCProMD wrote:Any idea of that T1SL reliability?

Since it's a new model, then no. But I can't see Litespeed building their flagship bike just for weight bragging rights.

Kent Eriksen builds 1000gr frames depending on rider weight and frame size so it's not unheard of...

fromtrektocolnago
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by fromtrektocolnago

Since you brought up MOOTS, I think business model is worth discussing. MOOTS was like Honda, good product but it comes one way and not as cheap as Hyundai or Motobecane. MOOTS, as a Titanium builder should be more upscale and focus on custom solutions (SEVEN'S space). Right now they are trapped between the high end custom builders and the Asian imports some of which are available on-line. Titanium is a great material and by working with the customer and varying tube selection a great product can be built and very competitive with Carbon offerings, but by offering stock specifications the true potential isn't realized.( I understand you can order a custom MOOTS, but it's not their focus)

I have a great carbon bike. I don't see a need for another. If I did get another bike it would be a Firefly or Bedford built up a little differently than my C59, perhaps 25 or 28 mm wheels, threaded bb, and maybe disc although I'm not sold on that technology at the moment.
Colnago C-59 (Dura Ace)
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Colnago C-64 disc(ultegra) with Bora 35 wheels

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prendrefeu
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by prendrefeu

I'm hoping JG (you know, the guy who is MOOTS here and posted in this thread) has a nice reply to that post.
Interesting take on things.

:popcorn:
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ergott
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by ergott

fromtrektocolnago wrote:MOOTS, as a Titanium builder should be more upscale and focus on custom solutions (SEVEN'S space). Right now they are trapped between the high end custom builders and the Asian imports some of which are available on-line.


I don't know, I think it's exactly Moot's decision to steer clear of Seven and (dare I say it) Serotta in the ultra high end price point. I really think their bikes are just as good anyway. Besides, you can get a custom geo Moots. They are a long way away from the Asian imports and are more appropriately held in the same category as the best ti bikes out there. You may pay more for other brands, but you really aren't getting more, just different.

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fa63
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by fa63

Titanium is already in the World Tour, all of the Shimano neutral service cars had shiny Moots mounted on them during the Worlds Road Race in Richmond.

:D

RyanH
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by RyanH

Titanium is and probably will always be boutique. Boutique != world tour sponsorship.

Regarding weight, looking at my build based on a ~1300g frame, there are only two parts on my 5.9kg build that I perceive as fragile: the Tune saddle and Fibre-Lyte chainrings. When I say fragile, I mean I can't drop my bike on the saddle otherwise it will probably crack and I don't want to hamm-fistedly shift chainrings otherwise I might break a tooth off.

I'm carrying about a 200g penalty over THM M3 cranks for the Quarq PM, which would put me in the 5.7kg range (12.6lbs). I could go more WW with:

Speedplay Nanograms: -42g
Berk Saddle Combo: -80g
Tune Skyline Skewers: -20g
Carbon Works Bottle Cages: -44g
Schmolke TLO Bars: -60g
Veloflex Extreme: -80g
Extralite Cyberclimb Wheelset: -200g

Total weight savings with the above would be -726g, or around 11.5 lbs, and that's without tuning any parts.

sawyer
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by sawyer

Years ago people said Ti had a comfort advantage over carbon

But in recent years carbon frame design has improved a lot to tune in more comfort, and various other changes (wider rims etc) have improved. How many here would say Ti still has a clear
advantage over the best carbon frames?

Years ago people said Ti was a bike for life but that was always a myth, and carbon has proved
much more resilient than many thought it was. And of course not many actually want a bike for life - we like new stuff

And carbon frames' stiffness to weight ratio and aerodynamic properties keep improving ... Not so with Ti frames

As others have said, the margins are thinner already on Ti, and because the best carbon frames continue to pull away in performance terms, anyone in Ti will really struggle to improve those margins ...

Not a business I'd want to invest my own money in
----------------------------------------
Stiff, Light, Aero - Pick Three!! :thumbup:

by Weenie


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