Trek Madone 2008 DA 9000 FD tuning help

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probertsqbe
Posts: 166
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:27 pm

by probertsqbe

I have recently upgraded the Groupset on my Trek Madone 2008 to Dura Ace 9000. See link to spec viewtopic.php?t=133777

I would consider myself an experienced home wrench with experience of building several bikes and doing all my own maintenance.

I am having a problem with fine tuning the Front Derailleur.

I started off by reading the Shimano FD-9000 dealer manual (several occasions) and then found some great articles great articles and videos. See list below.

http://blog.artscyclery.com/ask-a-mecha ... djustment/
http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/03/ ... hment/1-81
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showth ... p?t=343546
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showth ... p?t=331362

I've got the Front Derailleur tuned so that it works well shifting up and down between the small and large chainring.

The issue I have is I cannot elimate chain rub in either the small chainring and largest cog and the large chainring and smallest cog (12). Fine adjustment of the barrel adjuster, either elimates chain rub in the small ring largest cog, but creates chain rub in the large chainring and smallest cog and vice verse.

I am running the entire DA 9000 mechanical Groupset with a band FD adapter so have almost reached the conclusion that this is frame (originally designed for 10 speed) is slightly out of spec for 11 speed.

Anybody got any tips?

Ps method I'm using is described
http://blog.artscyclery.com/ask-a-mecha ... djustment/





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Arfer01
Posts: 145
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:34 am
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by Arfer01

probertsqbe wrote:I have recently upgraded the Groupset on my Trek Madone 2008 to Dura Ace 9000. See link to spec viewtopic.php?t=133777

I would consider myself an experienced home wrench with experience of building several bikes and doing all my own maintenance.

I am having a problem with fine tuning the Front Derailleur.

I started off by reading the Shimano FD-9000 dealer manual (several occasions) and then found some great articles great articles and videos. See list below.

http://blog.artscyclery.com/ask-a-mecha ... djustment/
http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/03/ ... hment/1-81
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showth ... p?t=343546
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showth ... p?t=331362

I've got the Front Derailleur tuned so that it works well shifting up and down between the small and large chainring.

The issue I have is I cannot elimate chain rub in either the small chainring and largest cog and the large chainring and smallest cog (12). Fine adjustment of the barrel adjuster, either elimates chain rub in the small ring largest cog, but creates chain rub in the large chainring and smallest cog and vice verse.

I am running the entire DA 9000 mechanical Groupset with a band FD adapter so have almost reached the conclusion that this is frame (originally designed for 10 speed) is slightly out of spec for 11 speed.

Anybody got any tips?

Ps method I'm using is described
http://blog.artscyclery.com/ask-a-mecha ... djustment/





Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk




Hi Fella. Those mechs in my experience are pretty fussy. Make sure the reversable pin next to the pinch bolt is in the correct orientation for a kick off. I set it to rub a little in the small ring and not in the big ring, as time goes on a little slack my come through and it will no longer rub in the little ring. Sounds ridiculas but thats how i do them. I also dont use a barrel adjuster and just use the limit to set the tension.

highdraw

by highdraw

OP, I sent my FD's up the same as Arfer...very slight rub on small chainring / large cog.
However I DO use a barrel adjuster for the FD but not for the RD as most RD's already have a barrel adjuster in back.

Ability to not trim with DA9000 is somewhat frame specific OP as you perhaps suspect. A short chainstay bike aka smaller frame size will be more challenged for not having to trim. But for limited time you are in small chainring/big cog...a hint of rub in this combo is worth is for the time you end up cross chaining to small/small in my experience.
Do the best you can and live with the rest.
PS: you may be able to tune a bit more trim out by playing with the yaw of the FD cage...try either toe in or toe out...but only 1-2 degrees to not degrade front shifting.

probertsqbe
Posts: 166
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:27 pm

by probertsqbe

Thanks for the advice guys. I've got the Shimano tool to determine if the connector pin should be on or off on the FD. On my frame the cable goes through the centre so I've tried it both ways.

Thanks for the tip on starting it off with some chain rub in the small chain ring and largest cog. That makes sense to me so I'll give that a go.

I'll also try slightly angling the Fd to see if that helps.

Cheers


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goodboyr
Posts: 1483
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:56 pm
Location: Canada

by goodboyr

Theoretically, there should be no rub in any combination on 9000's. I say theoretically, because it does take a lot of iteration to get there and there is usually a very narrow band of FD position, angle and cable tension to achieve this. That's very hard to achieve without an inline adjuster. I also didn't note in the discussion on whether the support bolt is correctly installed and solidly set against the backing plate or band clamp in your case. That's important to ensure the FD is acting as a rigid device without flex.

mattr
Posts: 4671
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 6:43 pm
Location: The Grim North.

by mattr

Sometimes you can benefit from lifting the front mech slightly (just a mm or two) as the chain is now running through a slightly wider part of the cage.

Not had to do it on my 6800 front mech as i don't get any rubbing, but it's worked on older D-A/ultegra (9 speed) and 105 (10 speed) set ups.
If the cage is still shaped similarly to earlier mechs, it might be worth looking into.

Shifting won't be affected *unless* the mech is already relatively high.

probertsqbe
Posts: 166
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:27 pm

by probertsqbe

@goodboyr, thanks for the advice. I'm using a barrel adjuster. As I'm using a band on adapter for the FD the support bolt is not required as stated in the Shimano Dealer manual (Page 7).


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probertsqbe
Posts: 166
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:27 pm

by probertsqbe

@mattr thanks for the advice I'll try lifting the front much slightly to see if that helps. I'd set it about 1mm so there's some scope to move it up a mm or two.


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goodboyr
Posts: 1483
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:56 pm
Location: Canada

by goodboyr

You've misread the manual. The backing plate is not required. The support bolt IS required.

highdraw

by highdraw

goodboyr wrote:You've misread the manual. The backing plate is not required. The support bolt IS required.

yeah but...yeah but :shock: ...adjusting the support screw against a carbon seat tube with carbon's poor abrasion resistance...OP please listen....is not advised. Yes goodboyr is right that the support bolt is there for a reason...in large part because of DA9000's FD aggressive pull ratio with short lever stroke which stresses the FD without this support. But OP...save your frame and use the small backing plate behind the screw. You will note if you don't your carbon frame will mark immediately by the screw and longer term, it won't be pretty as the screw digs into your frame which will affect screw adjustment as well.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

With the Shimano band type derailleur, the support screw or backing plate are not required. The band itself provides the necessary support. The backing plate is for brazeon type installations, and may or may not be required depending on the specific frame and how stiff its brazeon is or isn't, and whether if used the support screw can butt against the brazeon plate itself. I'm assuming you're using the Shimano 9000 band type front derailleur and not a third party brazeon clamp with a shimano brazeon front derailleur.
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goodboyr
Posts: 1483
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Location: Canada

by goodboyr

Yes. If using a shimano band type, there is a built in bearing surface against which the support bolts bears.

probertsqbe
Posts: 166
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:27 pm

by probertsqbe

See attached extract from Shimano manual
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1443722140.155023.jpg


Quote

When the mounting band adapter is used (as in my case) the support bolt and backing plate is not required.

I thought this was quite clear. I have miss understood this?


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Calnago
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by Calnago

I've only done one band type 9000 FD, so I may be mistaken. It was also on a Trek Madone of similar vintage. I don't seem to remember the support screw being used at all, but it was a while ago so I could be wrong.

If you are using the Shimano band type derailleur on that frame, you should be able to get very cleanly all four front derailleur positions with no rub. But read the dealers manual. Then read it again. Then everytime it doesn't seem to work, go back and read it again. You want to fine tune the tension when the chain is in the big ring and largest cog, with the lever in the upper "trim" stop (third position from the lowest stop, and one in from the outer stop). I finally got so I can do it cleanly with the use of a fourth hand tool and without the use of the inline adjuster (which I hate the looks of and allows water and other contaminants in over time). I align the outer edge of the derailleur cage dead parralell to the outer ring, with use of the flat side of an allen wrench, and using the lower limit screw as temporary aid in keeping the derailleur aligned over the large ring while I align it. It is indeed easier with the inline barrel adjuster installed however. But there is certainly a different technique involved to getting things right than in prior versions. Good luck.
Last edited by Calnago on Thu Oct 01, 2015 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

goodboyr
Posts: 1483
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:56 pm
Location: Canada

by goodboyr

Lol. Nope its me. The exact same band adapter is used with the di2 9070 and in that dealers manual it states that you still use the support bolt. I wrongly assumed that applied to mechanical 9000 as well. Weird. Sorry for the mixup.

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