Campag rear mechs: technical stuff

[BigYin]

I'm giving full reign to my inner Campag geek!

Nice post Highdraw, interesting stuff. Does there have to have been a minor tweak to 10s shifters 2011-2014 to account for 'Parallelogram with 11s geometry' though? Can it not all just happen at the RD as per my speculative theory?

In any case, it seems perfectly plausible that such a tweak to the 10s Powershift shifters was made. Bikerjulio, you seem to know your stuff stating why a tweak to the detent wheel would be irrelevant to this, the tweak would be with the cable spool diameter. Seems plausible such a tweak to the cable spool diameter was made though. Is there any reason why not? We know (I think) that Campag officially recommends only using 10s Powershift (2011-2014) RD'S with Powershift 10s shifters. Not officially compatible with Ultrashift or earlier 10 shifters. I speculate that this is not just because of increased spring tension but because of the introduction of 'Parallelogram with 11s geometry'.

So, my speculative conclusions (happy to have them rubbished):
- 2009/2010 10s RD's have same actuation as previous 10s. Backwards compatible only. Not compatible with 11s shifters.
- 2011-2014 10s RD's, new Powershift, are not backwards compatible. New 11s geometry, theoretically compatible with Ultrashift 11s shifters though officially recommended against due to greater spring tension.

'Compatible' in this context meaning technically perfect, actuation ratios, cable pull etc. I'm not talking about real world mix and match anecdotal reports of compatibility. Too unquantifiable, one man's perfect shifting could be another man's unsatisfactory.

If any of this is correct it kind of makes sense I think. Essentially, in 2011, Campag scrapped 10s Ultrashift, introducing new 10s Powershift. New shifter mechanism, cheaper parts, more profit. 10s and 11s RD's with the same geometry, streamlined manufacturing, tooling etc., more profit. Follow the money as people say (in dramatically unrelated contexts )

So, pre 2011 10s RD's are definitively not perfectly compatible with 11s shifters!!!.... maybe... etc etc

[highdraw]

BigYin...only plausible reason for the floated thesis that 2011-2014 Campy 10s and 11s actuation ratios are the same...is that Campy made a companion change to the 10s shifter cable pull ratio by tweaking their internal detent wheel...to fractionally tweak detent spacing affecting cable pull per click. All Campy followers know about the change in the detent wheel and other silent running changes for Ultrashift for model year 2010 because many of us owned the ill fated first year 2009 Ultrashift 10s Centaur shifters which mis-shifted with poor feel and excessive internal cable friction causing poor upshifting down the cassette.

wonderfully geekish thread so far.

I'm going to have to disagree with this theory. And I wrote extensively at the time on my 2009 Centaur shifter experience.

The detent wheel simply spaces the shifts by dividing the wheel up into segments corresponding to whether it was a 10 or 11-speed shifter. It had zero affect on how much cable is pulled per shift - that would be a function of the cable spool diameter.

The issue in 2009 was simply one of weak clicks, nothing to do with indexing which was fine. The improvement kit that Campy put out in early 2010 just firmed up the clicks on those early production shifters as well as fixing the cable interference problem. No change to RD or cable pull.

I know discussion here is beyond subtle and only for those that really care about this stuff like us...but you are conflating 2009 and 2011. Campy redesigned 10s for 2011. They changed the RD and they changed shifters from Ultrashift to Powershift. Both different for 2011 versus Ultrashift 2010...irrelevant to 2009.

[highdraw]

I'm giving full reign to my inner Campag geek!

Nice post Highdraw, interesting stuff. Does there have to have been a minor tweak to 10s shifters 2011-2014 to account for 'Parallelogram with 11s geometry' though? Can it not all just happen at the RD as per my speculative theory?

Thank you bro. Nope...can't just make the change to the Parallelogram and expect the same lateral movement of the RD per shift click. Lateral translation of the RD cage/pullies is a function of both the parallelogram geometry of the RD and how much cable is pulled per shift inside the shifter....so if Campy moved away from this ideal relationship by changing the RD when it went to the 11s wider outer plate geometry, then the pull ratio of the shifter has to change to bring it back into agreement with how it was before which is a function of cog spacing and cog spacing hasn't changed for 10s since it debuted.

Only a floated theory on Campy tweaking the shifter cable pull upon release of Powershift and btw it would be miniscule as DaveS mentioned...error was only about 1/2 cog spacing at one end of the cassette when there was agreement on the other end...but Dave said they were not the same and I tend to believe him because he is quite meticulous.

[AJS914]

Bigyin, if I were getting 11s today I'd go straight to 2015+. Buying 2014 levers puts you behind the curve out of the box. Sell your 10 speed stuff on eBay for good prices and get 11 Speed from a discounter like Ribble when they have their next Campy sale.

[highdraw]

Bigyin, if I were getting 11s today I'd go straight to 2015+. Buying 2014 levers puts you behind the curve out of the box. Sell your 10 speed stuff on eBay for good prices and get 11 Speed from a discounter like Ribble when they have their next Campy sale.

And BigYin to let you know...I wouldn't. Because buying 2014 Chorus 11s shifters + 10s Centaur/Veloce FD and 10s crank of any variety with any year 11s Athena RD slams into gear. 2015 Campy 11s is a lot more expensive and some have had issues with it. I would wait a year or two on the Campy's latest redesign...the ghost of 2009 Ultrashift hasn't left the castle.

[bikerjulio]

BigYin...only plausible reason for the floated thesis that 2011-2014 Campy 10s and 11s actuation ratios are the same...is that Campy made a companion change to the 10s shifter cable pull ratio by tweaking their internal detent wheel...to fractionally tweak detent spacing affecting cable pull per click. All Campy followers know about the change in the detent wheel and other silent running changes for Ultrashift for model year 2010 because many of us owned the ill fated first year 2009 Ultrashift 10s Centaur shifters which mis-shifted with poor feel and excessive internal cable friction causing poor upshifting down the cassette.

wonderfully geekish thread so far.

I'm going to have to disagree with this theory. And I wrote extensively at the time on my 2009 Centaur shifter experience.

The detent wheel simply spaces the shifts by dividing the wheel up into segments corresponding to whether it was a 10 or 11-speed shifter. It had zero affect on how much cable is pulled per shift - that would be a function of the cable spool diameter.

The issue in 2009 was simply one of weak clicks, nothing to do with indexing which was fine. The improvement kit that Campy put out in early 2010 just firmed up the clicks on those early production shifters as well as fixing the cable interference problem. No change to RD or cable pull.

I know discussion here is beyond subtle and only for those that really care about this stuff like us...but you are conflating 2009 and 2011. Campy redesigned 10s for 2011. They changed the RD and they changed shifters from Ultrashift to Powershift. Both different for 2011 versus Ultrashift 2010...irrelevant to 2009.

Well it was you who raised the 2009 example. And also suggested that a change to the detent shape could cause a change in cable pull.

I'd humbly submit that the only reason for a Campy suggested incompatibility between various recent years is 100% to do with tweaking spring tension and nothing else. They went too weak for a lighter feel, since cyclists have apparently gradually be losing the strength in their fingers over the years, and overdid it.

Since cable pull is easy to measure, and ditto sprocket spacing, the result of simple arithmetic is the RD ratio, which is consistent since 2000 for all Campy RD's. I have yet to see anyone put up actual measurements of changes to cable pulls through the 10 or 11-speed eras, but I'm willing to bet a whole Canadian dollar that there has been no change whatsoever.

[BigYin]

I'm giving full reign to my inner Campag geek!

Nice post Highdraw, interesting stuff. Does there have to have been a minor tweak to 10s shifters 2011-2014 to account for 'Parallelogram with 11s geometry' though? Can it not all just happen at the RD as per my speculative theory?

Thank you bro. Nope...can't just make the change to the Parallelogram and expect the same lateral movement of the RD per shift click. Lateral translation of the RD cage/pullies is a function of both the parallelogram geometry of the RD and how much cable is pulled per shift inside the shifter....so if Campy moved away from this ideal relationship by changing the RD when it went to the 11s wider outer plate geometry, then the pull ratio of the shifter has to change to bring it back into agreement with how it was before which is a function of cog spacing and cog spacing hasn't changed for 10s since it debuted.

Ah ok that makes sense, thanks.

Only a floated theory on Campy tweaking the shifter cable pull upon release of Powershift and btw it would be miniscule as DaveS mentioned...error was only about 1/2 cog spacing at one end of the cassette when there was agreement on the other end...but Dave said they were not the same and I tend to believe him because he is quite meticulous.

I like the theory, makes sense to me at least. And I agree re DaveS, I lean towards it being proven that older 10s RD'S are not a perfect match to 11 shifters. Though Bikerjulio seems to know his stuff too and disagrees. Bikerjulio, why can't you just agree and make life simple (kidding of course).

[BigYin]

Bigyin, if I were getting 11s today I'd go straight to 2015+. Buying 2014 levers puts you behind the curve out of the box. Sell your 10 speed stuff on eBay for good prices and get 11 Speed from a discounter like Ribble when they have their next Campy sale.

And BigYin to let you know...I wouldn't. Because buying 2014 Chorus 11s shifters + 10s Centaur/Veloce FD and 10s crank of any variety with any year 11s Athena RD slams into gear. 2015 Campy 11s is a lot more expensive and some have had issues with it. I would wait a year or two on the Campy's latest redesign...the ghost of 2009 Ultrashift hasn't left the castle.

My thoughts too. More options available by buying 2014, significantly cheaper, and stock won't run out for a fair while, plus eBay options. And I don't like buying any products on new launch, not just bike stuff. There's almost always flaws that didn't show up in R&D.

Thank you AJS914 for the suggestion though.

[bikerjulio]

Bigyin, if I were getting 11s today I'd go straight to 2015+. Buying 2014 levers puts you behind the curve out of the box. Sell your 10 speed stuff on eBay for good prices and get 11 Speed from a discounter like Ribble when they have their next Campy sale.

And BigYin to let you know...I wouldn't. Because buying 2014 Chorus 11s shifters + 10s Centaur/Veloce FD and 10s crank of any variety with any year 11s Athena RD slams into gear. 2015 Campy 11s is a lot more expensive and some have had issues with it. I would wait a year or two on the Campy's latest redesign...the ghost of 2009 Ultrashift hasn't left the castle.

My thoughts too. More options available by buying 2014, significantly cheaper, and stock won't run out for a fair while, plus eBay options. And I don't like buying any products on new launch, not just bike stuff. There's almost always flaws that didn't show up in R&D.

Thank you AJS914 for the suggestion though.

Check out Velomine for deals. For a crankset whatever you do buy UT. 10 speed cranksets and derailleurs work just fine for 11. So do 10 speed brakes! In fact Campy just took a step backwards into cheapness by not continuing with differential brakes.

Really all you need in 11-speed are Chorus shifters (just the same as Record), Chorus cassette (more durable), and a KMC chain.

http://www.velomine.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=86

[AJS914]

Just stay on 10 speed. Zero extra cost. That extra gear doesn't help that much.

[highdraw]

BigYin...only plausible reason for the floated thesis that 2011-2014 Campy 10s and 11s actuation ratios are the same...is that Campy made a companion change to the 10s shifter cable pull ratio by tweaking their internal detent wheel...to fractionally tweak detent spacing affecting cable pull per click. All Campy followers know about the change in the detent wheel and other silent running changes for Ultrashift for model year 2010 because many of us owned the ill fated first year 2009 Ultrashift 10s Centaur shifters which mis-shifted with poor feel and excessive internal cable friction causing poor upshifting down the cassette.

wonderfully geekish thread so far.

I'm going to have to disagree with this theory. And I wrote extensively at the time on my 2009 Centaur shifter experience.

The detent wheel simply spaces the shifts by dividing the wheel up into segments corresponding to whether it was a 10 or 11-speed shifter. It had zero affect on how much cable is pulled per shift - that would be a function of the cable spool diameter.

The issue in 2009 was simply one of weak clicks, nothing to do with indexing which was fine. The improvement kit that Campy put out in early 2010 just firmed up the clicks on those early production shifters as well as fixing the cable interference problem. No change to RD or cable pull.

I know discussion here is beyond subtle and only for those that really care about this stuff like us...but you are conflating 2009 and 2011. Campy redesigned 10s for 2011. They changed the RD and they changed shifters from Ultrashift to Powershift. Both different for 2011 versus Ultrashift 2010...irrelevant to 2009.

Well it was you who raised the 2009 example. And also suggested that a change to the detent shape could cause a change in cable pull.

I'd humbly submit that the only reason for a Campy suggested incompatibility between various recent years is 100% to do with tweaking spring tension and nothing else. They went too weak for a lighter feel, since cyclists have apparently gradually be losing the strength in their fingers over the years, and overdid it.

Since cable pull is easy to measure, and ditto sprocket spacing, the result of simple arithmetic is the RD ratio, which is consistent since 2000 for all Campy RD's. I have yet to see anyone put up actual measurements of changes to cable pulls through the 10 or 11-speed eras, but I'm willing to bet a whole Canadian dollar that there has been no change whatsoever.

In bold you wrote...
just to let you know if you have been paying close attention to this thread, what you are saying is DaveS is wrong. First off there were no 11s RD way back in 2000 so most of that decade is irrelevant to comparing with 10s. Further Dave built a bike with 11s shifter and 10s pre-2011 RD and noted an indexing error of 1/2 cog across the entire cassette range. Slight but nonetheless an error and I agree with him because he has studied this stuff closer than most and he tends to be a reliable guy. So no, all 10s RD's have proven NOT to have the same lateral travel per cable pull compared to 11 RD's...Dave kluge to correct this indexing error is proof positive. What IS possible however is...11s wide outer plate RD's have never changed until 2015...btw Athena...and I believe you know this is still unchanged for 2015 and why its backward compatible. But what isn't proven however speculated is...Campy did make RD's the same between 10s and 11s from 2011-2014 from the time 11s appeared. This would make sense to mitigate complexity and reduce tooling costs. And then coincidentally in 2011 Campy devolved Centaur and Veloce from Ultrashift to Powershift...largely to upsell or incentivize sale of 11s. In doing so since Powershift is a completely difference mechanism...they may have fractionally tweaked indexing of new 10s Powershifter to comport with travel of revised 10s RD's to agree with 11s. This is the most viable scenario I have come up with which fits both narratives...Dave proved that RD's were not the same prior to 2011 and since 11s was released, RD's are now the same until 2014..

[BigYin]

Thanks Bikerjulio. Nice prices on that website but it's US unfortunately, I'm UK. We get crippled here with import taxes, handling fees etc.

Already running UT chainset. You've far from convinced me about the RD compatibility though, in fact I'm pretty convinced you're wrong and DaveS is correct. No offense of course. If I use up my budget on Chorus 11 shifters and they don't work with my 10 RD will you buy me a new 11s RD please??!! (smiley face wink wink)

[bikerjulio]

Since I'd prefer to believe that:

A current 10-spd Veloce RD works just fine with any pre-2015 11-spd shifter

and

A current 10-spd Veloce shifter works just fine with a current RD as well as an old 2005 Centaur RD and back to 2000.

It logically follows that there has been no complicated conspiracy of minor tweaks to the RD's.

If some credible source proves me wrong, there's a shiny loonie in their future, as well as a grovelling apology from yours truly.

[ALAN Carbon+]

I have recently undertaken a similar upgrade to my second bike. The bike previously had what looks like a 2009 or 2010 Centaur rear mech (the version with the carbon face plate and Centaur in large letters).

I have added a set of 2013 Chorus shifters to the existing derailleurs and the rear derailleur shifts the full range of the 11sp cassette with no issues so far.

I originally undertook this purely as an experiment, purely on the basis that all the technical documentation I could find indicated that the shift ratio or 10 and 11 speed rear derailleurs was 1.5:1. If it didn't work I was anticipating having to buy a new 11sp derailleur but after the first couple of rides, all is good.

[highdraw]

Since I'd prefer to believe that:

A current 10-spd Veloce RD works just fine with any pre-2015 11-spd shifter

and

A current 10-spd Veloce shifter works just fine with a current RD as well as an old 2005 Centaur RD and back to 2000.

It logically follows that there has been no complicated conspiracy of minor tweaks to the RD's.

If some credible source proves me wrong, there's a shiny loonie in their future, as well as a grovelling apology from yours truly.

As I stated before bj, Dave proves you wrong. And btw, there is no conspiracy unless you want to believe one. At the end of the day, people always believe what they will and apparently you are no exception.
Cheers