Campag rear mechs: technical stuff
Moderator: robbosmans
Campag rear mechs, 10s and 11s, can we have a definitive answer on compatibility anyone?
It's been asked and answered before, but lacking important details, namely, the year of the rear much, very relevant to compatibility.
Campag documents say 2011 Centaur and Veloce 10 speed rear mechs have 11s parallelogram, so using these with an 11s shifter should work perfectly.
What about 2009/2010 Centaur rear mechs, the 10s ultrashift years? Are they also 11s parallelogram? No tech documents available for these years on Campag website. Can anyone help with a definitive answer please?
I've got a brand new Centaur 2009 ultrashift mech, bought years ago, never used. Want to use it now with 11 shifters.
I know pre-2009 mechs won't work without a mod as detailed by DaveS here. 2011 onwards should work perfect. So 2009/2010 are mystery years.
It's been asked and answered before, but lacking important details, namely, the year of the rear much, very relevant to compatibility.
Campag documents say 2011 Centaur and Veloce 10 speed rear mechs have 11s parallelogram, so using these with an 11s shifter should work perfectly.
What about 2009/2010 Centaur rear mechs, the 10s ultrashift years? Are they also 11s parallelogram? No tech documents available for these years on Campag website. Can anyone help with a definitive answer please?
I've got a brand new Centaur 2009 ultrashift mech, bought years ago, never used. Want to use it now with 11 shifters.
I know pre-2009 mechs won't work without a mod as detailed by DaveS here. 2011 onwards should work perfect. So 2009/2010 are mystery years.
Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓ Broad Selection ✓ Worldwide Delivery ✓
www.starbike.com
- bikerjulio
- Posts: 1900
- Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:38 pm
- Location: Welland, Ontario
Everything 10 and 11-sp RDwise 2000-2014 is compatible. The non compatibility starts with 2015 Chorus and up RD's which are not backwards compatible. Neither are the shifters, except with other 2015 RD mates. The foregoing refers to RD ratio compatibility. There have been minor changes to spring tension, meaning some may work better than others, but they will all work.
These sentences do not make sense. Try again.
I've got a brand new Centaur 2009 ultrashift mech, bought years ago, never used. Want to use it now with 11 shifters.
I know pre-2009 mechs won't work without a mod as detailed by DaveS here. 2011 onwards should work perfect. So 2009/2010 are mystery years.
These sentences do not make sense. Try again.
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?
One.
So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM
How many drivers does a buggy have?
One.
So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM
Thanks, I'm referring to the actuation ratios of the mechs, at what date did Campag change all their mechs to the new 11 parallelogram?
Some Campag 10s rear mechs don't work perfectly with 11s shifters. Slightly different parallelogram, different actuation ratio. 2011-2014 10s mechs have the new 11s parallelogram so should work perfectly with 11 shifters.
I can't find info on 2009/2010.
Some Campag 10s rear mechs don't work perfectly with 11s shifters. Slightly different parallelogram, different actuation ratio. 2011-2014 10s mechs have the new 11s parallelogram so should work perfectly with 11 shifters.
I can't find info on 2009/2010.
For clarity, I need to know if my 2009 Centaur rear mech will work perfectly with Record 11 shifters. Not just work acceptably, but work as a perfect match. The mech has to have the 11 speed parallelogram to match perfectly, does anyone know if it does?
- bikerjulio
- Posts: 1900
- Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:38 pm
- Location: Welland, Ontario
I'll try again.
Up until and including 2014 all RD's have a 1.5:1 ratio.
Campag have not changed all their 11-spd RD's - only Chorus and up changed for 2015.
If your shifter is 2014 or earlier, it will work with your RD.
Up until and including 2014 all RD's have a 1.5:1 ratio.
Campag have not changed all their 11-spd RD's - only Chorus and up changed for 2015.
If your shifter is 2014 or earlier, it will work with your RD.
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?
One.
So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM
How many drivers does a buggy have?
One.
So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM
All rear mechs up to 2014 do not have the same ratios.
It's well established that, for example, a 2006 Record 10s rear mech will not work perfectly with Record 11 shifters. If you think it will then you're not going to be much help here, no offense.
I need genuine Campag experts to contribute.
It's well established that, for example, a 2006 Record 10s rear mech will not work perfectly with Record 11 shifters. If you think it will then you're not going to be much help here, no offense.
I need genuine Campag experts to contribute.
- bikerjulio
- Posts: 1900
- Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:38 pm
- Location: Welland, Ontario
Funny. Good luck.
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?
One.
So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM
How many drivers does a buggy have?
One.
So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM
- vejnemojnen
- Posts: 406
- Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:11 pm
I don't see why it should not work. Seen dozens of bikes with 2009-2010 RD and 2013-2014 ergopowers, shifting is perfect.
To clarify, from 2001-2014 campag did not change the actuation ratio of their RD-s... Julio is right-correct-speaks the truth-youshouldlistentohim.
To clarify, from 2001-2014 campag did not change the actuation ratio of their RD-s... Julio is right-correct-speaks the truth-youshouldlistentohim.
- ultimobici
- in the industry
- Posts: 4462
- Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2004 2:45 pm
- Location: Trento, Italia
- Contact:
BigYin wrote:All rear mechs up to 2014 do not have the same ratios.
It's well established that, for example, a 2006 Record 10s rear mech will not work perfectly with Record 11 shifters. If you think it will then you're not going to be much help here, no offense.
I need genuine Campag experts to contribute.
To the bolded - it would follow that a Centaur 10 speed mech will behave in the same way as a Record 10 mech as they have the same pull ratio.
- bikerjulio
- Posts: 1900
- Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:38 pm
- Location: Welland, Ontario
Even though I was told to p!ss off, I eventually found the thread I was looking for.
OP, what you suggest is "widely understood" is nothing of the sort, but just because I'm nice, here is a good discussion of the issue
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/campagnolo/newer-veloce-10s-rear-derailleur-shifting-11-speed-320055.html
there's also this
http://www.ctc.org.uk/cyclists-library/components/transmission-gears/derailleur-gears/shimergo
OP, what you suggest is "widely understood" is nothing of the sort, but just because I'm nice, here is a good discussion of the issue
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/campagnolo/newer-veloce-10s-rear-derailleur-shifting-11-speed-320055.html
there's also this
http://www.ctc.org.uk/cyclists-library/components/transmission-gears/derailleur-gears/shimergo
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?
One.
So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM
How many drivers does a buggy have?
One.
So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM
Thanks for the replies, it's interesting to work out what works and what doesn't, Campag gives me a headache trying to work out different combos.
Julio, maybe I was a bit blunt last night, wasn't meant as a p!ss off to you. It's decent of you to contribute again, thanks, and very interesting links, I've read them both before and good info there. There is another discussion I can't find that measured the exact shifting of old 10 RD with new 11 shifters. It showed it isn't a perfect match but can be made to work without modifications to the RD if you're skilled with indexing set up. Basically the small difference in RD pull ratio can be split by adjusting from mid-cassette, so that the difference is split between large cog and small cog. Apparently it does work but there is no margin for error, no tolerance as there is with 11 RD with 11 shifters.
The roadbikereview discussion confirms that all Campag RD's from 2011-2014 work perfectly with new shape 10 and 11 shifters. This is expected as this generation of RD's all have the same 11s parallelogram. We are still left with uncertainty about old 10 RD's though. And we don't know definitively about 2009/2010 RD's, new 11s parallelogram or not?
Dave aka C40 seems to know what he's talking about on Campag. He's posted a modification for 10s RD's to work with 11 shifters. He doesn't say what year the RD is though. His contributions confirm what I've been told by a Campag mechanic, ie., older 10 RD'S have slightly different ratio to 2011-2014 RD's. Unsure about 2009/2010.
So if I can summarise my understanding regarding 10s RD's with 11s shifters:
Pre 2009 RD's may or may not work perfectly. Some, like Dave (C40), say a small modification to the RD is necessary. See here: http://forums.roadbikereview.com/compon ... 60601.html
2011-2014 10s RD's will work perfectly with 11s shifters (excluding new 2015 Chorus upwards).
2009/2010 Centaur and Veloce 10s RD'S, I have no idea, perfect match for 11 shifters or slight modification necessary??
There is clearly conflicting opinions on this, hopefully the details can be cleared up and maybe get some clarity on what works and what doesn't.
Julio, maybe I was a bit blunt last night, wasn't meant as a p!ss off to you. It's decent of you to contribute again, thanks, and very interesting links, I've read them both before and good info there. There is another discussion I can't find that measured the exact shifting of old 10 RD with new 11 shifters. It showed it isn't a perfect match but can be made to work without modifications to the RD if you're skilled with indexing set up. Basically the small difference in RD pull ratio can be split by adjusting from mid-cassette, so that the difference is split between large cog and small cog. Apparently it does work but there is no margin for error, no tolerance as there is with 11 RD with 11 shifters.
The roadbikereview discussion confirms that all Campag RD's from 2011-2014 work perfectly with new shape 10 and 11 shifters. This is expected as this generation of RD's all have the same 11s parallelogram. We are still left with uncertainty about old 10 RD's though. And we don't know definitively about 2009/2010 RD's, new 11s parallelogram or not?
Dave aka C40 seems to know what he's talking about on Campag. He's posted a modification for 10s RD's to work with 11 shifters. He doesn't say what year the RD is though. His contributions confirm what I've been told by a Campag mechanic, ie., older 10 RD'S have slightly different ratio to 2011-2014 RD's. Unsure about 2009/2010.
So if I can summarise my understanding regarding 10s RD's with 11s shifters:
Pre 2009 RD's may or may not work perfectly. Some, like Dave (C40), say a small modification to the RD is necessary. See here: http://forums.roadbikereview.com/compon ... 60601.html
2011-2014 10s RD's will work perfectly with 11s shifters (excluding new 2015 Chorus upwards).
2009/2010 Centaur and Veloce 10s RD'S, I have no idea, perfect match for 11 shifters or slight modification necessary??
There is clearly conflicting opinions on this, hopefully the details can be cleared up and maybe get some clarity on what works and what doesn't.
I haven't posted on any cycling forum for several years, because my knees are shot and I quit cycling after 25 years, to build a house and pursue other things (building a hot rod for something different). I much prefer cycling to hot rod building, but the knees just won't allow it anymore. A bummer since I live in Loveland, where there are many decent mountain roads to ride.
I've posted about 10 speed RDs, made before the introduction of 11 speed. Those will not shift properly, without a little modification, to reduce the lever arm length and increase the throw.
If ever in doubt, do what I did. Take the chain off and watch the pulley alignment of the RD, over the full range of travel. When I did this, long ago, with a 10 speed RD and 11 speed shifters, the travel came up a little short, so the match was not perfect. Just grinding down the diameter of the cable clamp bolt to reduce the lever arm length made the match-up work well.
I can't speak to what Campy might have done from '11-'15. If they made the 10 speed RDs work with an 11 speed shifter, then they would no longer work with perfectly with any 10 speed shifter previously made, since the throws are not quite the same.
I still have my oldest LOOK bike with the modified 10 speed RD and 11 speed shifters. I kept it for use during rehab, whenever I get a knee replacement. So far, I've avoided that, but only because I quit cycling.
I've posted about 10 speed RDs, made before the introduction of 11 speed. Those will not shift properly, without a little modification, to reduce the lever arm length and increase the throw.
If ever in doubt, do what I did. Take the chain off and watch the pulley alignment of the RD, over the full range of travel. When I did this, long ago, with a 10 speed RD and 11 speed shifters, the travel came up a little short, so the match was not perfect. Just grinding down the diameter of the cable clamp bolt to reduce the lever arm length made the match-up work well.
I can't speak to what Campy might have done from '11-'15. If they made the 10 speed RDs work with an 11 speed shifter, then they would no longer work with perfectly with any 10 speed shifter previously made, since the throws are not quite the same.
I still have my oldest LOOK bike with the modified 10 speed RD and 11 speed shifters. I kept it for use during rehab, whenever I get a knee replacement. So far, I've avoided that, but only because I quit cycling.
Something I would like to get a clarification on....using a 10s Campy rear derailleur with 11s right hand shifter. 10s rear derailleur actuation ratio hasn't changed since 2001 as noted. Many have tried it and pretty much all say it works. But...I have read that 11s Campy rear derailleurs do not have the same actuation ratio compared to 10s...they are fractionally different and NOT the same...but the difference between the two is quite slight and why a 10s Campy rear derailleur will shift a 11s driveline no problem.
Anybody have a definitive source that either supports or refutes the above?
thanks
Anybody have a definitive source that either supports or refutes the above?
thanks
- bikerjulio
- Posts: 1900
- Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:38 pm
- Location: Welland, Ontario
highdraw wrote:Something I would like to get a clarification on....using a 10s Campy rear derailleur with 11s right hand shifter. 10s rear derailleur actuation ratio hasn't changed since 2001 as noted. Many have tried it and pretty much all say it works. But...I have read that 11s Campy rear derailleurs do not have the same actuation ratio compared to 10s...they are fractionally different and NOT the same...but the difference between the two is quite slight and why a 10s Campy rear derailleur will shift a 11s driveline no problem.
Anybody have a definitive source that either supports or refutes the above?
thanks
That's what this thread is about.
I posted 2 links that are probably about as definitive as you are going to get. the true campy professionals don't want to get involved too much in discussions like this - they have jobs to keep.
Suggest you read them, but in summary the conclusion is that there is no measurable difference in ratios between 10 and 11-speed RD's. If Campy really had introduced a minor change, then you'd have to ask why? Since it would involve a change in tooling and additional parts, to achieve something that is more easily done in the shifter by an adjustment to cable pull.
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?
One.
So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM
How many drivers does a buggy have?
One.
So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM
Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓ Broad Selection ✓ Worldwide Delivery ✓
www.starbike.com
bikerjulio wrote:highdraw wrote:Something I would like to get a clarification on....using a 10s Campy rear derailleur with 11s right hand shifter. 10s rear derailleur actuation ratio hasn't changed since 2001 as noted. Many have tried it and pretty much all say it works. But...I have read that 11s Campy rear derailleurs do not have the same actuation ratio compared to 10s...they are fractionally different and NOT the same...but the difference between the two is quite slight and why a 10s Campy rear derailleur will shift a 11s driveline no problem.
Anybody have a definitive source that either supports or refutes the above?
thanks
That's what this thread is about.
I posted 2 links that are probably about as definitive as you are going to get. the true campy professionals don't want to get involved too much in discussions like this - they have jobs to keep.
Suggest you read them, but in summary the conclusion is that there is no measurable difference in ratios between 10 and 11-speed RD's. If Campy really had introduced a minor change, then you'd have to ask why? Since it would involve a change in tooling and additional parts, to achieve something that is more easily done in the shifter by an adjustment to cable pull.
I tend to lean your way..but have to say if true quite a revelation if zero difference in actuation ratio and yes a distinct tooling change and complexity etc are a compelling argument.
But for the non purist who wants to transistion to 11s who owns a Campy 10s bike...
Heck...the only thing one must change are the cassette, chain and shifters as both a 10s front and rear derailleur will work...and a 10s crank will work...current Campy freehub will fit a 11s Campy cassette...doesn't take much new hardware to create a Campy 11s bike from a 10s bike as it turns out. Some believe in fact the wider cage 10s front derailleur shifts better than a 11s Campy front derailleur...I run a 10s Campy FD on a 11s Campy bike and it shifts beautifully with little need to trim.