Campag rear mechs: technical stuff

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highdraw

by highdraw

WMW wrote:
highdraw wrote:My vote? 2014 Chorus 11s Ultrashift + Athena 11s RD 'all day long' bro. A fabulous combo.


Would a recent Veloce or Centaur derailleur also work?

I'm a little confused by all the back and forth in this thread. I've been on Chorus 11 shifters for a long time, but running a DA rear derailleur and 9spd S. Thinking about going to 11.

If you don't have a Campy RD yet, then a slam dunk to not choose a 10s derailleur. Me personally, I didn't even toil about this when I built my most recent Campy 11s bike because its not worth the hassle to not have it shift perfect even if you have an existing 10s Campy RD Order an Athena 11s RD from one of the on line UK shops...I have used most of them and never had an issue if you are in the US...and ebay your Campy 10s RD is what I did. Btw, I still run both a Campy 10 and 11s bike and I don't find a lot of difference between them...I barely notice the extra cog in back.

by Weenie


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highdraw

by highdraw

ALAN Carbon+ wrote:However highdraw I do not get a 1/2 cog index error that Dave gets, the jockey wheels line up at both ends of the cassette. Any of these combos of 10 and 11 speed parts are inconsistent with the design intent as campagnolo has never stated that they were designed too be used together.

Sent from my 0PJA10 using Tapatalk

Alan, don't know how meticulous you are. But I have known Dave for a long time and he is one of the most focused and particular guys about Campy on the web. Some consider him an expert on Campy in fact and hard to argue as technically his advice is solid over the years. He is very much into the details. I know for fact that two people can work on the same issue and draw very different conclusions...the case here. The fact that he made a physical change to cable attachment to bring the RD into agreement with 11s rear cog spacing suggests there is a difference in 10s and 11s RD's...at least for the year RD he used which I believe he still owns. Fact he made a physical change to bring cage lateral movement per cable pull into agreement is pretty irrefutable...changing the cable attachment point to affect net lateral movement of the RD cage per amount of cable pull is a known practice on the web as cable positioning does affect this relationship.
My thoughts. The truth lies someplace and Dave's change to cable attachment to me sides with reality.
I have no doubt you are speaking the truth from your perspective and are happy with the shift performance of your combo.

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bikerjulio
Posts: 1900
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:38 pm
Location: Welland, Ontario

by bikerjulio

Well, I just had to do it for myself. And coincidentally this morning I came across this which seems apposite:

Occam’s razor is the philosophical principle that suggests, all things being equal, the simplest explanation tends to be the right one.


Occam's razor (also written as Ockham's razor and in Latin lex parsimoniae, which means 'law of parsimony') is a problem-solving principle devised by William of Ockham (c. 1287–1347), who was an English Franciscan friar and scholastic philosopher and theologian. The principle states that among competing hypotheses that predict equally well, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected. Other, more complicated solutions may ultimately prove to provide better predictions, but—in the absence of differences in predictive ability—the fewer assumptions that are made, the better.


Anyway, following the philosophy lesson we have a real world trial. Test mule has Chorus shifters, 12-29 cassette, 52/36 rings, KMC chain. Neutron Ultra wheels.

Centaur RD came off a 10-spd bike with Campy hubs.

Installed, and had it shifting perfectly on the stand after a couple of minutes. Only adjustment was to the inner stop as the 11 speed big cog is a little closer to the wheel that on the 10 speed bike that the RD was borrowed from. Obviously, if one forgot to adjust the inner stop, the RD wouldn't travel enough.

Shifts perfectly and quietly across the cassette on both the small and big ring.

Image

Image

before cable the Centaur was pretty well spot on small cog.

Image

small-big

Image

small-small

Image

big-small

Image

big-big

Image
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

highdraw

by highdraw

Hi bj. Thanks for doing that. If you haven't put the bike back together can you add a bit more scientific method? As it turns out...your results simply comport with Alan's findings...that it works. This is known. But your pictures don't show if its optimal.

So how to prove its optimal? With straight dearailleur hanger and chain removed and 4th cog aligned precisely with roller closest to the cassette with 3 clicks on the RH shifter AND with both inboard and outboard RD stops fully loosened 1-2 full turns away from ridable settings....now evaluate derailleur alignment in no. 1 cog and no. 11 cog. That is the proof of the pudding. To my eye looking at your pictures which are taken at too obtuse an angle (non true view) to determine orientation, it looks like the older Centaur 10s RD is undershifting at both no. 1 and no. 11 cogs..aka there is shift error. This is obscured by the chain and camera angle. Oh you have demonstrated it works just like Allen has...but that is not to say it is as optimal and older 10s RD actuation is the same as 11s RD as you propose.

Until you perform the test I suggest, you/we won't know...having a second data pt. to either corroborate or refute DaveS's testing.

A friendly suggestion only and thanks for your participation in discussion.
PS: why this matters is because DaveS is a very credible guy who in my experience is rarely wrong when it comes to Campy design.

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bikerjulio
Posts: 1900
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:38 pm
Location: Welland, Ontario

by bikerjulio

It's still together the trial way. I had a ride around the block to test shifting on the fly. Seemed fine.

Just checked alignment with a DAG 2 and it's spot on.

I did as you suggested. Stops out. No Chain.

Upper pulley aligns perfectly at both ends.

Pics to follow.
Last edited by bikerjulio on Mon Sep 21, 2015 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

BigYin
Posts: 57
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:16 am

by BigYin

Bikerjulio, great post, thanks for doing that and posting what you found, pics and all.
If you're willing, if it's not too much hassle, please do as Highdraw suggests, or your own version, you're a technical guy too. That would be extremely helpful. You're very close to putting this matter to bed, conclusively, one way or the other, which would be great.

I'll be the first to happily eat my words and apologise if you definitively prove it works. I want it to work. But like Highdraw intimates, I'm hesitant right now because it was DaveS that documented the shifting error, he's about as credible as you can get on this stuff. If any old Joe and done the experiment it would be different.

You're very credible too, so please, if you can, if not too much hassle, re-test as per Highdraw (DaveS' method).

Again, great post though, proved that it works as AlanCarbon said, which is enough for most real-world applications, just not proved if it's technically 100% perfect identical actuation.

Cheers.

BigYin
Posts: 57
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:16 am

by BigYin

Sorry Bikerjulio, you're obviously already on it. Great. Eagerly awaiting pics. Cheers.

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bikerjulio
Posts: 1900
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:38 pm
Location: Welland, Ontario

by bikerjulio

I don't see how upper pulley alignment could get any better than this.

So to reiterate, perfect hanger alignment, older Centaur 10-spd RD, Chorus 11 shifter, stops backed out, pictures showing the ends of travel. Because the big cog is a 29 the upper pulley engages it without a chain installed.

No cheating, no adjustments whatsoever between pictures.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

highdraw

by highdraw

Awesome what you did bikerjulio. Btw, I had no dog in this hunt...just believed it was speculation versus DaveS's hard results. You are a credit to the hobby. I know you know your stuff about Campy and should add when I read your posts I rarely disagree with what you write. Pretty hard to believe DaveS was mistaken and even created a work around for shorter travel. Quite odd that both your results don't agree which I find quite a dilemma but there is no refuting what you show and that Centaur RD is clearly pre wide outer plate common to newer 10 and 11s rear derailleurs.
Maybe DaveS will stop back in and try to explain the disparity in results.
Baffling.
Thanks for setting the record straight.
PS: loved the told ya so pictures as well. You were right and deserve the credit.

BigYin
Posts: 57
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:16 am

by BigYin

Haha, nicely done Bikerjulio.
You must have doctored these photos surely, it just can't be so. Just kidding. The proverbial hat has been eaten, copious amounts of pie eaten, flowers and apology card are in the post. You were right, I was wrong. Kudos for sticking to your guns and backing it up with the time and effort to prove it. Thanks for doing that.

So I think we can now say it's settled, conclusive, definitive: ALL Campag 10s and 11s rear derailleurs are both interchangeable and completely perfectly compatible with all 10s and 11s shifters!


With due respect to DaveS (genuinely), would anyone like to speculate what might have gone wrong with his experiment? A simple oversight, old sloppy RD, new RD but out of spec?? etc. It seems like his sole experiment has been the one sole data point showing incompatibility leading us down this rabbit hole. I don't know him but suspect he won't be remotely put-out to be proved wrong, maybe more interested than anything. Be interesting to know his take on things now.

Anyway, I've enjoyed this discussion, and nice to have it all conclusively proven...rather than be left with my endless speculations. Nice work Bikerjulio, nicely done, 'I told you so' pics and all.

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WMW
in the industry
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Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:59 pm
Location: Ruidoso, NM

by WMW

BigYin wrote:So I think we can now say it's settled, conclusive, definitive: ALL Campag 10s and 11s rear derailleurs are both interchangeable and completely perfectly compatible with all 10s and 11s shifters!


2015 is different for Chorus and up.
formerly rruff...

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WMW
in the industry
Posts: 893
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:59 pm
Location: Ruidoso, NM

by WMW

bikerjulio wrote:I don't see how upper pulley alignment could get any better than this.


Awesome work, thank you!

It's possible DaveS looked at one that was out of wack somehow. At least on the newer 10spd stuff Campy advertises "Parallelogram with 11s geometry". I don't know what that would mean if it isn't compatible with 11spd shifters and gears.
formerly rruff...

BigYin
Posts: 57
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:16 am

by BigYin

WMW wrote:
BigYin wrote:So I think we can now say it's settled, conclusive, definitive: ALL Campag 10s and 11s rear derailleurs are both interchangeable and completely perfectly compatible with all 10s and 11s shifters!


2015 is different for Chorus and up.


Indeed. Only 2015 Chorus and up is different. Everything else is compatible.
You're right to clarify that for anyone perusing. Cheers.

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bikerjulio
Posts: 1900
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:38 pm
Location: Welland, Ontario

by bikerjulio

WMW wrote:
bikerjulio wrote:I don't see how upper pulley alignment could get any better than this.


Awesome work, thank you!

It's possible DaveS looked at one that was out of wack somehow. At least on the newer 10spd stuff Campy advertises "Parallelogram with 11s geometry". I don't know what that would mean if it isn't compatible with 11spd shifters and gears.


As I already said IMO it's simply Campy marketing way of implying that there is a difference, after all how many 11s groupsets would they have sold if it was widely known that all you needed were shifters, cassette and chain? I like and use Campy equipment, but their marketing, and "badge engineering" can be a little distasteful.

In case anyone is not familiar with the term:

Rebadging, sometimes called badge engineering with varying degrees of sarcasm, is the application of a different brand or trademark (badge, logo) to an existing product (e.g., an automobile) and subsequently marketing the variant as a distinct product.[1][2] Due to the high cost of designing and engineering a new model or establishing a brand (which may take many years to gain acceptance), it is less expensive to rebadge a product once or multiple times than to create different models. The costs of product development and manufacturing tools are spread over more vehicles, achieving economies of scale.[3] The "badge engineering" term is an intentionally ironic misnomer in that little or no actual engineering takes place.[4][5]
The term originated with the practice of replacing an automobile's emblems to create an ostensibly new model. Differences may be confined to simply badges and emblems, or may encompass minor styling differences, as with cosmetic differences to headlights, tail lights, and front and rear fascias.
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

richard@lbrc.org
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 1:59 pm
Location: London, England.
Contact:

by richard@lbrc.org

Great discussion, I'm enjoying every turn. Let me add one reverse scenario.

When my old Chorus 10s (c.2010 I think) RD wore out, I replaced with a Chorus 2015 11s RD - even though I'm still running Chorus 10s levers, 10s cassette. I figured if it didn't work, I'd go out and buy new lever, cassette etc.

But to my surprise, it worked just fine (can't say if it's millimetre perfect, but it works). Now I have the Record 2015 FD as well with the old 10s levers, and that works fine too.

Just saying.
R.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



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