Disc brakes in California?

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prendrefeu
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by prendrefeu

ethanfiamingo wrote:but imo a total of 325g compared to 200g which is one of the lightest road calipers available is not that bad...


125g difference is actually quite bad. You're on Weight Weenies. There are brakesets lighter than EE as well, so the difference between your "lightest" rim brakeset vs. the "lightest" disc brakeset is more significant than 125g. 125g is more than 1/4 of a pound, for perspective.

ethanfiamingo wrote:Yall is haters


No, many of us have been thinking about this for quite some time. Years, in fact. There are threads on this forum discussing this ad nausea.
Whether you think mass is rotational vs. static, it's still mass.

And, finally, there are many great posts in this very thread basically saying that Disc Brakes in California (which is the subject of the post) are not necessary, it's ultimately up to the user's own preferences. That isn't being a "hater" - a term which is something a 12 year old would call someone they can't discuss things with.
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mnmasotto
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by mnmasotto

The prior weight penalty calculations/estimations are incorrect. I have made my Specialized S-Works Tarmac Disc as light as possible at approximately 15 lbs. My prior S-Works with rim brakes weighted in at 12.8 lbs. with similar equipment. All factors being considered I think an approximate 1.5 lbs. weight penalty for disc brakes is about right.
Last edited by mnmasotto on Sat Sep 26, 2015 12:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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rmerka
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by rmerka

ethanfiamingo wrote:PLUS its NOT just the brake track that would be removed it would be the clincher bead as well... Imagine a rim so low that it looked like you are just riding on the tire. Could be cool I'm sure some one will poorly execute it, no clincher or brake track could mean one solid U shaped layup...


One can only imagine....Having a clincher bead is irrelevant to disc brakes, what you're talking about would be a tubular rim.

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ethanfiamingo
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by ethanfiamingo

prendrefeu wrote:
ethanfiamingo wrote:but imo a total of 325g compared to 200g which is one of the lightest road calipers available is not that bad...


125g difference is actually quite bad. You're on Weight Weenies. There are brakesets lighter than EE as well, so the difference between your "lightest" rim brakeset vs. the "lightest" disc brakeset is more significant than 125g. 125g is more than 1/4 of a pound, for perspective.

ethanfiamingo wrote:Yall is haters


No, many of us have been thinking about this for quite some time. Years, in fact. There are threads on this forum discussing this ad nausea.
Whether you think mass is rotational vs. static, it's still mass.

And, finally, there are many great posts in this very thread basically saying that Disc Brakes in California (which is the subject of the post) are not necessary, it's ultimately up to the user's own preferences. That isn't being a "hater" - a term which is something a 12 year old would call someone they can't discuss things with.



I am familiar with weight conversions as well as the name of this forum.


Yes mass is mass is mass, but you are obviously not seeing the point that rotational weight WILL effect the ride characteristics of the bike much more than a static component like a stem. Isnt the ultimate goal to have a well rounded, quick accelerating bike that is still light?

Thinking about discs is different than dealing with actual applications on a daily basis; testing with different riders on different bikes, getting tons of comprehensive feedback from riders of all disciplines, abilities, locations have led me to believe this is a positive change for the future. Most people that are speculators are the same ones that haven't put the miles down or tried the gear and are HATERS! Who cares if the term I used is a common colloquialism used by preteens haters gon hate and thats what yall is doin.

I have been working in shops for over 10 years and have ridden, worked on, seen more bikes than most. Not saying my opinion is worth more than yours however calling me a petulant child is pretty petty when you dont know that i have bled more hydraulic disc brakes in a week than you've ridden in your life.

Again, I doubt that they are truly necessary for most applications, and if you dont like them then don't buy them, but the uneducated slander that is spewed on the internet is hilarious.

Im enjoying the pot stirring!

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by RyanH

ethanfiamingo, your numbers are off. Mnmasotto's quoted 1.5lbs difference is a lot closer to what I was able to calculate when I looked at this a few weeks ago. 2nd thing, from feedback I've seen, a lot of people experience rub and other issues in the long run that would drive many users nuts. I think it was mnmasotto that built an extralite hub wheelset and they could never get the rub out of that.

MoPho
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by MoPho

prendrefeu wrote:It's really up to you. How comfortable you are in descending. How well you can handle your bike in adverse conditions. It's all up to the individual to be *honest* with their own abilities. If you have, be honest with yourself, fear in descending or sometimes lack confidence/concentration when conditions get averse, you may want to consider disc brakes.



I live in CA, I am a very confident and fast descender and I would really like to have disc brakes on my next bike


And, finally, there are many great posts in this very thread basically saying that Disc Brakes in California (which is the subject of the post) are not necessary,


Many things like Di2, paddle shifters, Carbon frames, 11-speed, clipless pedals, Aero bikes, light bikes, etc. aren't "necessary" in California either. :noidea:



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prendrefeu
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by prendrefeu

MoPho, congratulations on your desire to have disc brakes on your bike. Again, as you did quote - it's up to you. Congratulations on your personal decision!
And yes, as you pointed out with the second quote - it is not necessary! It is up to you!
That was the point of your post, right? To summarize what many in the thread have concluded? That it's not necessary and it's up to you?
Yay!

:beerchug:
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MoPho
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by MoPho

prendrefeu wrote:MoPho, congratulations on your desire to have disc brakes on your bike. Again, as you did quote - it's up to you. Congratulations on your personal decision!
And yes, as you pointed out with the second quote - it is not necessary! It is up to you!
That was the point of your post, right? To summarize what many in the thread have concluded? That it's not necessary and it's up to you?
Yay!

:beerchug:



Actually, my point was to challenge your comment about ones [lack of] comfort level descending as the reason to consider disc brakes, "otherwise it's a whole lotta nope".
That comes across as unless you suck at descending, don't get them, not "it's up to you" :noidea:

I was also noting the absurdity of even pointing out that disc brakes aren't necessary when the same can be said of most things on our bikes.
Unless your paycheck comes from winning races, no one "needs" any of this stuff, they want it. :beerchug:


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pushstart
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by pushstart

mnmasotto wrote: All factors being considered I think an approximate 1.5 lbs. weight penalty for disc brakes is about right.


This sounds right to me. I originally was thinking the penalty was closer to 1lb, but would believe 1.5lbs, since I haven't built up the same/equivalent frame for both rim and disc.

I like disc brakes, but I won't pretend they are a requirement. Personally, I feel like they free up the bike to run different purpose wheel/tire combos (wider, narrower) without adjusting brake pads. Of course, I like the consistent stopping, etc. I don't have hydros, so rotor rub is not an issue. (I also don't get the same power as hydros, but modulation is nice and they are sufficiently powerful.)

Not sure what earlier comment was re: disc brakes not working when it is pouring rain. Mine work just fine in downpours; there have been a bunch of testing opportunities for that this summer. They are loud when wet, though.

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Stolichnaya
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by Stolichnaya

The OP is seeking advice on a purchasing decision to be made relatively soon.
Seems like a bunch of posters here are discussing the future prospects of disc brakes on road bikes, which is fine.
But in this present moment, my original comment still holds water, including the recommendation to check back when weight/etc. is no longer a big penalty.

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madcow
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by madcow

I've done quite a few similar builds in both disc and rim brake and am happy to share what we've seen for differences in weights.

Frames, average is a gain of 60 grams for the disc.
Forks, average is a gain of 34 grams for the disc.

Skewers. Comparing a standard Tune DC14 to the light alloy thru axles that most disc come with the difference is 105 grams. However since this is weight weenies we can assume you'd ditch the stock thru axles and go to something non quick release like the Carbon-ti which are about as light as you can get, that drops the difference to 35 grams gain for the disc version.

Hubs, Tune 70/170 vs Tune King/Kong (yes there are lighter versions of both of these, but the differences are pretty consistent.) 82 grams heavier for the disc version.

Spokes, minimum of 24 spokes in the front for disc, where most rim brake wheels are 20. Using cxray that's 16 grams heavier for the disc.

Rims, Enve 3.4 disc rims are lighter than the rim brake version by 89 grams.

Calipers, levers, and cables/lines. Comparing Di2 9070 with EE brakes, Enve pads, and stock Shimano cables and housing to 785 Di2 levers, calipers and hydraulic lines. Disc 312 grams heavier.

Rotors 65 grams each for a lightweight Ashima rotor and another 10 grams for mounting bolts. 150 grams heavier for disc.

So in the end the only place you go lighter is on the rims. Making the difference between the two 600 grams, about 1.3 pounds.

Of course either side of this equation could be make lighter, but in all fairness the difference between the two remains pretty constant. The only time it really changes is when you move to a disc bike that has a standard QR setup and then the difference between the two shrinks by about 100 grams.

uraqt
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by uraqt

I think it kinda funny those wanting for industry standard ....... I don' think it's going to happen, if they can't agree on bottom brackets why would they agree on this? They can't even agree on a rim brake standard.


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pushstart
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by pushstart

The difference here is that there motivation/pressure to settle on a standard in order to facilitate wheel changes, neutral support etc. for road racing.

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mrowkoob
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by mrowkoob

pushstart wrote:The difference here is that there motivation/pressure to settle on a standard in order to facilitate wheel changes, neutral support etc. for road racing.


+1

You won´t see all the pros on it before there is a standard for the neutral support. And you will see the pros on it because there is sponsor pressure for them to ride it, so consumers will buy new road disc bikes.
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