Campag CULT bearings - to grease or not to grease?

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colster
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by colster

My Bora Ultra 2's are just over a year old now and have done around 4,500km. The front hub is as good as new, though the rear has a little play and so I feel is time for a service.
I have never serviced hubs with ceramic bearings before and am wondering if/what grease should be applied.
My understanding is ceramic bearings themselves do not require any grease at all, but some grease should be applied to the steel races they run in. As Campagnolo state they apply a "Cronitec" coating to those races is there no longer a need for grease? Or should that just mean less grease?
If grease were used would lithium grease be too viscous i.e. it could increase resistance effectively nullifying the whole point of running ceramics? Would a light motor oil be a better option?

Any opinions or experience welcome!

acetonehk
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by acetonehk

As my understanding, ceramic bearing CAN work without grease, but they should work BETTER with appropriate lubrication.

Normally from the experience dealing with inter-metal friction, the light oil may not stay between two metal surface under a high load to decrease the friction.

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em3
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by em3

Oil is grease. Grease is oil. If u service ur hubs often then oil is fine. If u go longer intervals without servicing use a light grease. NOBODY will b able to discern a "difference" in performance between using oil and grease....one just breaks down quicker but neither will slow u down. Just like NOBODY can actually discern a difference between using ceramic and standard bearings.....the noticeable difference is in the longevity of the bearings only.
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RJKflyer
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by RJKflyer

OIL ONLY

Campagnolo says:

Friction of the wheel and crankset is extremely reduced thanks to the minimal lubrication system required by CULT™: only a thin film of oil in the place of the grease traditionally used.

And if you go searching for lubricants for Cronitect bearings, you'll find schaeffler who make them materials showing tests where they prove their dry running ability, and their worry was stopping oil from the air-conditioning system in the test room 'contaminating' the test!!

More from the manufacturer of the bearings:

For professional and ambitious amateur cyclists, friction in areas of racing cycles such as the wheel hubs and the botttom bracket bearings plays a decisive role. It thus has a significant influence on the purchasing decision. Until now, bottom bracket bearings have predominantly been fitted with ball bearings made from 100Cr6, sealed on one side and lubricated with grease.In partnership with a well-known manufacturer of cycle components, Schaeffler Group Industrial has developed a new concept – specifically optimised for low bearing friction – for this application. The new Cronitect® hybrid bearing does not have a contact seal; a low viscosity oil is used in place of grease, while a specially designed bearing cage ensures protection against coarse contamination. A comparative measurement of frictional torque carried out on the loaded bearing between the previous solution and the new Cronitect® hybrid bearing gives an indication of the level of the friction saving achieved. With the new bearing concept, the bearing friction could be reduced by up to 75%, Figure 7. The solution described has been used successfully in volume for a year and has already achieved numerous successes in well-known cycle racing tours.

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

Oil is too easily washed out. If you use oil more regular servicing will be required. In my super record chainset I put a small amount of grease every few thousand miles. Whatever lubricant you use you don't have to use a lot.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

I use only a couple drops of light oil, like triflow or Pro-Gold. Cult bearings do not need or want grease. Super durable. I have yet to replace a set of cult bearings. The Boras are quite well protected from water and grunge. For the crankset cult bearings I just clean by squirting a spritz of degreaser at them then blowing dry with some compressed air. They sound like a dental tool when they're spinning so fast. Maintenance is super easy. Using grease won't hurt them, but you'll defeat any of the friction benefits they provide by doing so.
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Djkinsella89
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by Djkinsella89

Pretty sure Campys first tech docs for cult bearings recommended using LU2116, which is just triflow banana oil. Campy has since inexplicably removed many older tech doc PDFs from their website so if anyone has a manual from a 2009 era Super Record crank that they can fact check, that may be helpful. They later changed their recommendation to "oil specifically for bearings" which is a lot more WTF....

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Leviathan
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by Leviathan

...I think Campagnolo means "as opposed to oil specifically for frying"

graeme_f_k
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by graeme_f_k

The factory recommendation is light synthetic oil, ProGold or similar works well, as Calnago says.

As a general point - grease is just oil with a chemical soap added to aid it's ability to stay where it's needed. Grease is not a better or worse lubricant than oil in and of itself, it is just "stickier" and therefore makes more sense in an environment where an oil film can't be easily and quickly refreshed. It's main job in a hub or BB bearing is actually one of keeping the oil film in place as a corrosion control, as much as a lubricant.

Grease contributes to rolling resistance only because by it's viscous nature it impedes the movement of a ball-bearing or bearings held in a retainer through itself.

Many moons ago, it was a regular thing on the track to clean the grease out of the BB and the hub bearings (track races if outdoor only being conducted in the dry & indoor, well, in general we hoped that the roof wouldn't leak as there'd be carnage otherwise) and simply run a thin oil film - in those days sewing machine oil being many mechanics oil of choice. 5W motor oil would do as well ... we'd do it critical TTs as well, partly to satisfy ourselves and partly to satisfy the riders that we had done everything possible ...

In a CULT system, Cronitect is basically a stainless steel and rusts incredibly slowly if at all, ceramic doesn't rust, so there's no need for a persistent corrosion inhibitor - all the oil is doing is a simple lubrication task so it just needs occasionally refreshing.
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Djkinsella89
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by Djkinsella89

FAG recommends using mineral oil, specifically one in the viscosity class ISO VG 22 or 32. You're saying the Campy factory recommends a synthetic though? I know you have connections to the factory tech that most here don't so I'm honestly interested in your advice. I beleive triflow is mineral oil based and almost positive progold is as well.

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

Maybe I'll give the oil a go the next time I take them apart. I was only worried about oil only as the sealing on the bb bearings is minimal and I do ride the bike in the rain. Bearing grease is what the distributor said to use when I asked which is why I used it. I doubt with the minimal amount I used drag was increased. 10000km and still going. Never had that from an external bb before. They are not even worn slightly yet. Maybe I should fit cult bearings to my record and chorus hubs.

Timujin
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by Timujin

Calnago wrote:I use only a couple drops of light oil, like triflow or Pro-Gold. Cult bearings do not need or want grease. Super durable. I have yet to replace a set of cult bearings. The Boras are quite well protected from water and grunge. For the crankset cult bearings I just clean by squirting a spritz of degreaser at them then blowing dry with some compressed air. They sound like a dental tool when they're spinning so fast. Maintenance is super easy. Using grease won't hurt them, but you'll defeat any of the friction benefits they provide by doing so.



Calnago, do you have a link for the oils please. im preparing to service my Bora Ultra 35s and need to buy the light oil like you mention but cannot find any link to buy the Pro-Gold.

thanks,

Digger90
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by Digger90

Apparently, most of the friction in bearings is caused by the seal and grease - whether the balls themselves are ceramic or steel constitutes only the very tiniest fraction of rolling resistance according to this guy (who seems to know what he's on about) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7iZVfSDbiA&t=2s most

It's a thought-provoking video and does make you wonder about the marketing claims made by manufacturers.

If (as this video states) ceramic bearings degrade their steel races in a relatively short amount of time, which creates more friction and drag than a regular steel bearing does, is there any real benefit whatsoever to normal road warriors like us unless the bearings are virtually brand new?

Not trolling or looking for an argument - I had a pair of Campy Bora 35's which I loved the ride feel of, and am considering buying a new pair for my next bike. But I really do wonder whether the "ceramic bearings have less friction" thing is all a load of tosh. Maybe under laboratory conditions yes.. but in the real-world.... after several few thousand miles?

Svetty
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by Svetty

Calnago wrote:.... and grunge......


So CULT bearings aren't Nirvana then? ;)

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colster
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by colster

Hambini's videos are a good resource, but remember he is talking specifically about sealed cartridge bearings in his videos, whereas the CULT and USB ceramic bearings Campagnolo install in the Bora's are angular contact or "cup-and-cone" bearings. Wear on either the balls or the races in an angular contact setup is easily dealt with by adjusting the cup and cone, whereas sealed cartridge setup's don't fair so well in this regard as most preload designs (at least that I've encountered) don't offer the same fineness of adjustability you will get in a quality cup-and-cone hub like a Bora or Dura Ace. The fact that both Shimano and Campgnolo use cup-and-cone in their best hubs is testament to this.

Hambini has frequented Weight Weenies before, so Hambini if you are reading this then we would like to hear your thoughts on the pros and cons of cup-and-cone vs sealed cartridge, particularly when ceramics are used...

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